Keir Starmer

An interesting if rather depressing debate has broken out. It appears the good burghers of BM would like the Labour Party to become something akin the American Democrats.

Capitalism wants to turn the Labour Party into a party where capitalism has nothing to fear. In America capitalists don't fear the democrats, they own the democrats, just like Labour is now being owned by the donors. Blair was deemed the safer option to carry on the doctrines of Thatcherism than Major and the Capitalists backed Blair to the hilt, how quick was Murdoch to offer his approval.

There may be few of us who think that the world would be a better place without Capitalism but it is an ideal I hold dear because I see the ravages of Capitalism, you all see it, but choose to ignore the ravages for what ever reason that may be. I see homelessness and I see kids going hungry and I see Capitalism as the reason, it is immoral that in a nation of plenty we have such enormous inequality between the haves and the have nots. Yes there is a comfortable middle of which I expect many of the good burghers of BM exist, happy with the few crumbs thrown from the top table and content with a life of ordinariness where there is a glass ceiling they dare not approach because of the iniquities of the class and social system.

How can it be morally acceptable that one person owns so much when so many have so little, what kind of society allows that sort of existence.

I am a working class lad, I have nothing, admittedly i am not homeless or hungry and i have shoes and warm clothing but why does an accident of birth allow a person who was born like me with nothing allowed to have so much when in general so many live like me. Why does the connections of ones family matter more than ones intellect, why does one mans work ethic mean he is more valuable than the next mans work ethic. Why do we have people earning millions whilst people we see as the most valuable contributors to society earn so little. How can we measure a man whose use of capital to grow his capital makes him more valuable than the man who pulls you out of a burning house.

Capitalism is the harbringer of all that is ill in society, it produces uneducated worker drones who work for pittances to make their masters ever increasing profits. Capitalism is the great exploiter of the planet, it takes precious resource for personal rather than collective gain, it increases the power of those who already have power and diminishes the power of those with least.

It is no wonder the propaganda of the Capitalists is so effective as it allows you to think your are a success and you join in the worship at its altar because you can buy a new pair of shoes and are better off than the family down the street whose shoes are one year old.

This is what the left has to fight against, it has to rally the people to claim there share of precious resources, it doesn't have to be an equal share as the propagandists insist, there doesn't have to be equality of outcome as the propagandists opine it only has to be a fair days pay for a fair days work. It means the working class taking ownership of their own surplus value and not renting it out for a capitalist to profiteer from. That way the working class can reclaim the dignity denied them by the Capitalist class, inequality can be narrowed not extinguished because innovation and service should be rewarded. it can make help make the working class proud of the country as they are helping to build a nation where nobody goes without and every man and women has a reasonable and rewarding life.

Leftist politics isn't hard, it is not about the liberal rubbish you read from the propagandists such as the obsession with culture wars and the likes, leftist politics is about making life rewarding for all, it is about making the arts available to all, its about making sure everyone is fed and has a place to call home. It is about dignity in life, it is about pride in ones profession, it is about being decent towards your fellow man. Its wanting your children to have the best education possible so they can enjoy a life of dignity and reward, its about making sure people have the best of health and if not the best of health the best of help to enjoy a life of dignity. This creates a country where people are proud to call home, a country where Patriotism is natural and not forced, a country where extremists are dismissed as cranks and given no truck.

The left has to fight to change Capitalism, because it is only by changing Capitalism can the country become a place where everyone has the things i describe.

If Starmer takes up the cudgel and rouses the comrades then we can make the world a place like i describe, but sadly i doubt he has it in him and however much he panders to Capitalism, the things i describe will continue and the working class will remain at the beck and call of the Capitalists.
Capitalism works, it works even better when there’s enough regulation to ensure it’s done ethically.

Socialism only works when it’s added as a flavour to an economy, in particular areas of industry, like our NHS or utilities, for example.

A competitive private sector lifts people out of poverty and allows them to own their own home and have money in their pocket.

That is precisely the reason your politics is unpopular and the working classes have rejected it.
 
You have said you won't vote for Starmer ergo you make another Tory Government more likely.

What is done is done and hopefully those foolish enough to vote for the chancers currently holding office will reflect on their mistake.
Not necessarily.

In my constituency it’s only ever been and only ever is between Tory and LibDem. A vote for LibDem is more likely to stop a Tory MP winning.
 
Capitalism works, it works even better when there’s enough regulation to ensure it’s done ethically.

Socialism only works when it’s added as a flavour to an economy, in particular areas of industry, like our NHS or utilities, for example.

A competitive private sector lifts people out of poverty and allows them to own their own home and have money in their pocket.

That is precisely the reason your politics is unpopular and the working classes have rejected it.
Exactly as the last Labour government did it, and Starmer knows this.

The left wing had it's chance and it blew it and cost us our place in the EU and gave us the most incompetent government in my lifetime.
 
Disagree. I am a traditional labour voters but will not vote for starmer, I suspect many of the more.left leaning supporters will do likewise.
The middle.ground voters deserted Corbyn hit want us to now support a vaccum of a leader? No chance, he has no chance and the floaty types that like him should understand why we won't support him. The usual suspects on here saying we cut off our nose to spite our face are pretty clueless and should probably just vote Tory. Labour used to stand for something, it stands for nothing now, a blairite vessel for nodding donkeys. No thanks
Unless it attracts voters in large numbers it has no relevance other than shouting at a tory government. Blair knew that. Think Starmer does too. Appealing to left wing voters may well keep some of it's members amd left wingers happy, but would acheive nothing but more years of tory government. Sounds like selfish self indulgence to me and does nothing for those of us that want or even need a Labour left of centre government.
 
SNP. Who did you vote for at the last election?
Ha - well if you are in Scotland - then you had a valid choice to voting Labour, but still being able to stymie the Tories.

My comments were really aimed at the English Labour voters - because as @Gaudion M just pointed out - if you are really a Labour supporter - in a normal GE there is not really a credible choice but to vote for the party that will/may beat the Conservatives.

I have voted Labour most of my life - but have voted Tory since 2015 (and Brexit Party in the EU elections). It will probably be a surprise but my recent votes were influenced by the single issue of Brexit. I could/can readily put up with some years of a government that I dislike if it secured generations of being out of the EU.

Corbyn and McDonnell were too left-wing for me - but they would have gotten my vote if they had been the champions of Brexit.

I would expect to be voting for Labour next time - unless they start a rejoin campaign
 
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. Labour used to stand for something, it stands for nothing now, a blairite vessel for nodding donkeys. No thanks
Absolutely.

A party that is not a Democratic Socialist party is not a party I can vote for. It is just another party i have no affiliation with.

Would the Tories on here still vote Tory if the next Tory leader decided he wanted to Nationalise industries, increase Taxes, campaign to rejoin the EU, support CND, Defund the police, support CND, make it the law that every person had an immigrant living with them if they had a spare bedroom. Increase Immigration, scrap the armed forces, Ban the Union Flag. Would they fuck. they would be as angry as I am about the betrayal of what I consider the parties values and principles.
 
Absolutely.

A party that is not a Democratic Socialist party is not a party I can vote for. It is just another party i have no affiliation with.

Would the Tories on here still vote Tory if the next Tory leader decided he wanted to Nationalise industries, increase Taxes, campaign to rejoin the EU, support CND, Defund the police, support CND, make it the law that every person had an immigrant living with them if they had a spare bedroom. Increase Immigration, scrap the armed forces, Ban the Union Flag. Would they fuck. they would be as angry as I am about the betrayal of what I consider the parties values and principles.

Some of those things I could get behind if sensibly thought through (nationalisation of certain activities/industries, bilateral CND because WMD are just shit, and increased taxes) and support and others I would ponder the actual fitness for government such as defunding police.

But if we were to defund the police I would not understand why I would need to pay more taxes rather than less however I would happily have a live in security guard who I would not care if he/she was an immigrant or not.

I guess we just have to realise we don’t get the perfect government. If we are doing wish lists I want one that bans candles in Liverpool.
 
Now I have been very critical of starmer andnhis blandness, fence sitting.

But I am slightly impressed that he has made an official response video and statement for the nation.

Fair play he could have just released stuff on social media or relied on his news interviews, but I think it is a clever trick to make broadcast across the stations in a way you expect from a Prime minister, will have many, party and non party memebers in the general public seeing him look ministerial in a time of national crisis.
 
Now I have been very critical of starmer andnhis blandness, fence sitting.

But I am slightly impressed that he has made an official response video and statement for the nation.

Fair play he could have just released stuff on social media or relied on his news interviews, but I think it is a clever trick to make broadcast across the stations in a way you expect from a Prime minister, will have many, party and non party memebers in the general public seeing him look ministerial in a time of national crisis.
It impressed me too, he looked the grown up in the room in comparison to Johnsons sulky petulance.

I do really want to like the fella, he leads the party i love and i think he nudged me slightly towards being more agreeable towards him, albeit from a very low starting point.
 
Some of those things I could get behind if sensibly thought through (nationalisation of certain activities/industries, bilateral CND because WMD are just shit, and increased taxes) and support and others I would ponder the actual fitness for government such as defunding police.

But if we were to defund the police I would not understand why I would need to pay more taxes rather than less however I would happily have a live in security guard who I would not care if he/she was an immigrant or not.

I guess we just have to realise we don’t get the perfect government. If we are doing wish lists I want one that bans candles in Liverpool.
The question was though if a Tory party stood on that manifesto at a GE would you vote Tory?
 
Absolutely.

A party that is not a Democratic Socialist party is not a party I can vote for. It is just another party i have no affiliation with.

Would the Tories on here still vote Tory if the next Tory leader decided he wanted to Nationalise industries, increase Taxes, campaign to rejoin the EU, support CND, Defund the police, support CND, make it the law that every person had an immigrant living with them if they had a spare bedroom. Increase Immigration, scrap the armed forces, Ban the Union Flag. Would they fuck. they would be as angry as I am about the betrayal of what I consider the parties values and principles.
Apart from the fact that Starmer’s pledges that will be made manifesto, are basically the same as Labour’s 2017 manifesto, which you were very happy with.

Just seems he’s kicked a few antisemites out and those who liked those antisemites have spat their dummies out.
 
Now I have been very critical of starmer andnhis blandness, fence sitting.

But I am slightly impressed that he has made an official response video and statement for the nation.

Fair play he could have just released stuff on social media or relied on his news interviews, but I think it is a clever trick to make broadcast across the stations in a way you expect from a Prime minister, will have many, party and non party memebers in the general public seeing him look ministerial in a time of national crisis.
He’s nicked Biden’s playbook.

Look like the sensible man in the room. A calming influence etc. It may well get him into number 10 but if he follows it up by fucking unions off and relaying on corporate donors to mirror image the dems he’ll be removed by the members sharpish.
 


What have you done with the real Keith?

WOW.

Keith must have got wind that some of us on BM think he is a bit of a wet wipe

He has a point though, the treatment of the British Gas engineers is fucking disgusting. The company are utter cunts.
 
The question was though if a Tory party stood on that manifesto at a GE would you vote Tory?
Well as I could never support defunding the police then no, I would not.

I’m sure I’m no different to most/all on here in that we all have red lines. Mine are probably not that different to many who vote Labour so including things like providing social support to those who cannot support themselves, the NHS, and a fair society.

I guess where we differ is the definition of those things, for example what you would see as a compassionate society might be quite different to what I do even though at the heart of it we probably both agree on a central principle that those who can, do and those who can’t we look after
 
Well as I could never support defunding the police then no, I would not.

I’m sure I’m no different to most/all on here in that we all have red lines. Mine are probably not that different to many who vote Labour so including things like providing social support to those who cannot support themselves, the NHS, and a fair society.

I guess where we differ is the definition of those things, for example what you would see as a compassionate society might be quite different to what I do even though at the heart of it we probably both agree on a central principle that those who can, do and those who can’t we look after
I am not saying I support any of those things, i was making a point. People on here don't appear to understand why I am struggling to support Starmer despite him being a Labour leader, its because I don't support the way the party is going just as you would not support the Tories if they went down a path you were unhappy with.

I get told you must support Starmer because he can win power, but what is the point of him winning power to me if i don't support what he is doing. Same as you wouldn't want the Tories in power doing the stuff you don't agree with.
 
I am not saying I support any of those things, i was making a point. People on here don't appear to understand why I am struggling to support Starmer despite him being a Labour leader, its because I don't support the way the party is going just as you would not support the Tories if they went down a path you were unhappy with.

I get told you must support Starmer because he can win power, but what is the point of him winning power to me if i don't support what he is doing. Same as you wouldn't want the Tories in power doing the stuff you don't agree with.

I get that mate. I suppose voting is like voting for the prettiest of the ugly sisters; vote for him to have a more left leaning government or don’t vote and maybe let the tories back in.
 
I get that mate. I suppose voting is like voting for the prettiest of the ugly sisters; vote for him to have a more left leaning government or don’t vote and maybe let the tories back in.
I would rather vote for something i do believe in as negative democracy is voting for the prettiest ugly sister.

I just hope the CPGB stand in my constituency
 

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