Keir Starmer

[Chippy_boy]

I’m sure they both have eyes on the crown but, as you say, neither of them would be popular with the electorate and I think both would be worse for the country.

The only chance Labour have is if their policies start to force their way through the rhetoric, showing real improvements to people’s lives. Early shoots are there but we’re in a period of such uncertainty, minor gains aren’t going to cut it and it’s easy to understand why people will turn to other parties to protest the issues, even though they might by even worse off for it.

I agree. The way I see it, Labour are in a really terrible spot, NOT all of their own making.

The problem is fundamentally an economic one; Labour philosophy in their DNA almost is to tax and spend, in the belief that this is good for the economy; that the government can be the driver of economic growth by investing and pushing up public sector wages. Let's not get into an argument about whether this is a good idea (passionately I believe that it isn't, others have the opposite view). But what we can say is it usually works in the short term. We saw that in the first 2 terms of the Blair government. Blair inherited a growing economy with modest and falling debt levels (£350m - 37% of GDP) and the world economy on the up. Tax levels were around 30% of GDP - a 30 year low.

He and Brown had headroom. So they embarked upon a sustained period of taxing and spending, and that spending resulted in noticeable improvements in public services, schools, the NHS etc. To the unsophisticated voter, it felt like the good times were back and it was all down to Labour. Let's not dwell on the wheels falling off in term 3.

The problem Labour have now is that the rosy position Blair inherited does not exist. Taxes are already running at record high levels - vastly higher than when Blair took over. Debt is around £2.9 Trillion - 94% of GDP - the interest on which is already crippling.

There is absolutely no room to do what Labour would normally like to do. Their capacity to "show real improvements" by 2029 is close to zero. They correctly recognise that growth is the only way out of this dire situation, but they have no ability to drive it in anything like the necessary timescales. (And no clue either, but that's a different discussion.)

 

[bert38]

Thanks. You'll not be surprised to hear me say I don't share that perspective.

I am not sure enough allowance is made for the fact that we were at the time trying to navigate unprecedented waters, with extremely important (understatement) yet diametrically conflicting pressures: To save lives to the greatest practical degree, whilst not at the same time, putting millions out of work and crashing the economy to the point it may take decades from which to recover. Johnson had to make some really difficult decisions and there was no "user manual".

Could it have been handled better? Probably. Perhaps we could have locked down sooner. Others argued we shouldn't have locked down at all. On balance did Johnson do an OK job under the circumstances? I would say yes, he probably did.

On balance the man should be in prison.

Perhaps he could’ve got his fat ass to the first 5 cobra meetings?

Or instructed his government to have read the recommendations of Op Cygnus?

Or perhaps stopped being an entitled slob at some point. I can’t abide the man, but something about some free glasses…

Frankly for the Alexander Johnson posh boy working class hero personification we can now see how the same elites push for the crowning of another, even bigger grifting twat.

 

[Chippy_boy]

On balance the man should be in prison.

Perhaps he could’ve got his fat ass to the first 5 cobra meetings?

Or instructed his government to have read the recommendations of Op Cygnus?

Or perhaps stopped being an entitled slob at some point. I can’t abide the man, but something about some free glasses…

Frankly for the Alexander Johnson posh boy working class hero personification we can now see how the same elites push for the crowning of another, even bigger grifting twat.

When I read the first sentence, I thought you meant Starmer. And I would have agreed. I feel exactly the same about Starmer as you do about Johnson. I am no fan of Johnson's either, mind you. He was a bumbling, scuffy oaf with few redeeming features. But not *none*. He did actually get Brexit done, and he did actually IMO do an OK job at managing our COVID response, including mopping up available vaccine supplies faster than our EU counterparts.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thanks. You'll not be surprised to hear me say I don't share that perspective.

I am not sure enough allowance is made for the fact that we were at the time trying to navigate unprecedented waters, with extremely important (understatement) yet diametrically conflicting pressures: To save lives to the greatest practical degree, whilst not at the same time, putting millions out of work and crashing the economy to the point it may take decades from which to recover. Johnson had to make some really difficult decisions and there was no "user manual".

Could it have been handled better? Probably. Perhaps we could have locked down sooner. Others argued we shouldn't have locked down at all. On balance did Johnson do an OK job under the circumstances? I would say yes, he probably did.

well most of what I said has already been proven by the Covid enquiry so your argument is with them. I really don't know wether you are serious when you can forgive some of the guys behaviours in office and around Covid.

I'm not even going near Brexit as that is a whole different can of worms. Hey ho. Takes all sorts. Have a nice day mate.

 

[Saddleworth2]

He did actually get Brexit done,

He did indeed 'get it done' to our permanent and irreversible disadvantage.

 

[hampshireblue]

When I read the first sentence, I thought you meant Starmer. And I would have agreed. I feel exactly the same about Starmer as you do about Johnson. I am no fan of Johnson's either, mind you. He was a bumbling, scuffy oaf with few redeeming features. But not *none*. He did actually get Brexit done, and he did actually IMO do an OK job at managing our COVID response, including mopping up available vaccine supplies faster than our EU counterparts.

We now know where you've been in your absence from BM-swallowing the Daily Mail archives.

 

[Chippy_boy]

well most of what I said has already been proven by the Covid enquiry so your argument is with them. I really don't know wether you are serious when you can forgive some of the guys behaviours in office and around Covid.

I'm not even going near Brexit as that is a whole different can of worms. Hey ho. Takes all sorts. Have a nice day mate.

Ditto. Thanks for the courteous reply.

 

[Chippy_boy]

He did indeed 'get it done' to our permanent and irreversible disadvantage.

(Before I start, I voted Remain.)

Your point is debatable. Claims that we have lost x% of GDP due to Brexit are speculative at best, since we don't know what the situation would be had we not left. There is no baseline to compare with.

And the point is, like it or not, it's what the public voted for. I didn't like the outcome and for a while thought we should try to reverse it. I since realised I was wrong in campaigning for that. Referendum results MUST be respected, and at least Johnson did deliver what the people voted for - which had been proving incredibly difficult to deliver.

I am now more sanguine about us having left. We have a world of opportunity open to us that we did not have before. The government - much though it tries not to - has more freedom to NOT align itself with a failing socialist bloc.

Someone said that we are in the lifeboat, and people urging us to rejoin are trying to climb back on board the Titanic. I agree with that view. Germany is the new sickman of Europe, France is suffering a long and painful slow death, Italy's debt levels are a joke, and unemployment across the whole Eurozone make ours look marvellous. Wanting to align closer with that is dubious indeed.

 

[bert38]

When I read the first sentence, I thought you meant Starmer. And I would have agreed. I feel exactly the same about Starmer as you do about Johnson. I am no fan of Johnson's either, mind you. He was a bumbling, scuffy oaf with few redeeming features. But not *none*. He did actually get Brexit done, and he did actually IMO do an OK job at managing our COVID response, including mopping up available vaccine supplies faster than our EU counterparts.

fair enough-you are of course entitled to your own opinion on him.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Your point is debatable.

it really isn't mate. Just ask OBR.

 

[Chippy_boy]

it really isn't mate. Just ask OBR.

I wouldn't ask the OBR whether the earth was round. Their analyses are consistently dreadful and it was idiotic for any government to be tied to any ludicrously inaccurate forecasts they always produce. But in any event, as I say, they have no baseline to compare with. Maybe the earth gets hit by an asteroid if we had voted Remain. There is no "comparison" to be made, merely speculation about what *might* have happened had we stayed.

 

[mosssideblue]

When I read the first sentence, I thought you meant Starmer. And I would have agreed. I feel exactly the same about Starmer as you do about Johnson. I am no fan of Johnson's either, mind you. He was a bumbling, scuffy oaf with few redeeming features. But not *none*. He did actually get Brexit done, and he did actually IMO do an OK job at managing our COVID response, including mopping up available vaccine supplies faster than our EU counterparts.

For some time, I thought you might be wumming in this thread. This confirms it.

 

[Pedestrian]

Crikey. We’re at the point already where folk are rewriting the Johnson debacle. How strange. The bloke is a complete **** just like his father. Anyone who doesn’t agree with that is also a complete Johnson.

 

[hampshireblue]

He isn't. I know you lefties only chat amongst yourselves but if you ever decide to open your mind, you would notice what a complete and utter cluster fuck this government has been.

Says the bloke who has blocked me for daring to challenge him. Oh, did I mention he also leid on a number of issues before he blocked me? I wonder why he's so active suddenly-did they let him out on parole?

 

[Chasmcfc]

Correct the "working man" isn't paying more tax, simply because there is no work for the working man any more and it's getting worse.. Claires Accessories, Wren Kitchens.... who's next?

Claire’s Accessories always going in and out of liquidation you act If businesses never go under I think the worse record was 2023 . Come back when we’re in a recession what happen twice under the previous Government.

 

[hampshireblue]

proof? or is this just another silly interpretation of misplaced garbage that others have posted?

Well it wasn't garbage was it, because you stated it and I corrected you-not that it did any good.

 

[Chasmcfc]

All these. Going on if labour take a bashing in local elections is a sign of pending defeat come GE in 2029.
3yrs away .
they say. A day a long time in politics.

 

[hilts]

The threat Labour faces at the next election does not come from Reform or the Tories, it comes from the Greens.

One hopes

 

[BigJoe#1]

However much millions of people will treat it as a referendum, it won’t make the slightest difference to who represents you in parliament and who the PM is, but you could end up with a bunch of clueless morons running your local council and making a complete mess of it. There’s plenty of examples of Reform completely fucking up local government so good luck with your protest vote, although in your case you wouldn’t vote Labour anyway.

Have you watched Sky News this morning? From Ashton-under-Lyne, very revealing about how people (or should I say clueless morons) feel going into this election. The shadow of the leader principle is come through very strongly. There is a very strong resentment toward the Labour government in an area that is Labour through and through... a bit like here in Wales.

I might suggest you stop doing the people of Manchester, the North and the UK a disservice by classifying everyone who disagrees with you as "clueless morons". It might make your arguments more persuasive too.

 

[metalblue]

They can say hi as much as they want.

They’re still not voting for Westminster MPs so their opinion of Starmer is no more relevant than for voters voting for English councillors.

Great post to pre-emptively dismiss why these votes matter. Sure you’ve insulted the Welsh and Scottish nations but it’s a small price to pay to demonstrate your loyalty.

if we take it as a whole and look at the evidence of Starmer, Gorton gone, polling under 20% in terms of people who think he is doing a good job, set to lose Wales for the first time, and fending off leadership challenges - you’re right the local elections aren’t going to tell us anything we don’t already know.