Ken Livingston

[west didsblue]

I disagree. I don't think it is anti-semitic to question the legitimacy of Israel, because it is a disagreement or criticism of one aspect of the beliefs of a proportion of Jews. You would end up labeling everybody "anti-this and anti-that" just because they disagree with certain elements of another's views or way of life. I'm not saying these two are in any way equally legitimate, but disagreeing with the legitimacy of the ISIS Caliphate is not anti-Muslim, and for me the same is applied to Israel. Just because a proportion of a people say it's their view and major belief, doesn't make you anti that entire group of people because you disagree. I disagree about a number of elements of Jewish practice and faith, that isn't anti-Semitism.

In fact your definition is something I would expect Netanyahu to use as a way of trying to ensure nobody could argue against his policies because if you disagree with any of it you're "anti-semitic, hate all Jews and everything associated with them". It's a definition to be used by very single-minded, bigoted people who want to believe their view and their way is the only way and everyone opposed to it is a "hater".

I agree it's not automatically antisemitic to question the legitimacy of the State of Israel but I would question the motives of those who had those views if they weren't also questioning the legitimacy of the USA, Australia, Pakistan and quite a few more that involved the settlement of land by people that weren't indigenous to that area (although depending on how far back you look, the Jewish people are indigenous to that area). Suggesting that the residents of that area should be transported elsewhere as Naz Shah did is antisemitic though.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I agree it's not automatically antisemitic to question the legitimacy of the State of Israel but I would question the motives of those who had those views if they weren't also questioning the legitimacy of the USA, Australia, Pakistan and quite a few more that involved the settlement of land by people that weren't indigenous to that area (although depending on how far back you look, the Jewish people are indigenous to that area). Suggesting that the residents of that area should be transported elsewhere as Naz Shah did is antisemitic though.

I think that's fair. I put my view across because I feel people should have the right to question and disagree without labeling and stigma because if you start with saying it's anti-this to disagree or question this element, then where do you stop? It would end up people looking to prevent people questioning anything because you'd just be labeled anti it. It's like criticising the divorce settlement process, or how sexual abuse/assault cases are reported or prosecuted and being labelled anti-women/anti-equality. Once the label is approved for one thing it's used to quash any argument and becomes an automatic stigma. That's why I defend that right to debate, criticise and question elements and aspects without being demeaned and labelled for it.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I disagree. I don't think it is anti-semitic to question the legitimacy of Israel, because it is a disagreement or criticism of one aspect of the beliefs of a proportion of Jews. You would end up labeling everybody "anti-this and anti-that" just because they disagree with certain elements of another's views or way of life. I'm not saying these two are in any way equally legitimate, but disagreeing with the legitimacy of the ISIS Caliphate is not anti-Muslim, and for me the same is applied to Israel. Just because a proportion of a people say it's their view and major belief, doesn't make you anti that entire group of people because you disagree. I disagree about a number of elements of Jewish practice and faith, that isn't anti-Semitism.

In fact your definition is something I would expect Netanyahu to use as a way of trying to ensure nobody could argue against his policies because if you disagree with any of it you're "anti-semitic, hate all Jews and everything associated with them". It's a definition to be used by very single-minded, bigoted people who want to believe their view and their way is the only way and everyone opposed to it is a "hater".

For Netanyahu, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are simply one and the same thing...

Netanyahu: Anti-Israel stances fueled by hatred of ‘the collective Jew’...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-says-anti-israel-sentiments-fueled-by-hatred-of-collective-jew/

"We see anti-Semitism directed against individual Jews, and we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state,"

"Even respected Western opinion leaders have become afflicted with hatred for the Jewish people and the Jewish state,"

Netanyahu is a clever wordsmith, note how he leads with the anti-Semitism word in reference to individual Jews, but holds back from using it when talking about "collective Jews" deciding instead to use the words "we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state," This is not accidental

Again in his second quote, he refrains from accusing unnamed Western opinion leaders of anti-Semitism, but again conflates hatred of individual Jews with hatred of the Jewish State ( his preferred name for Israel).

For Netanyahu Jews and the Jewish state are as one and in the UK mainstream media the distinction is now blurred to non- existence, using that yard stick Labour is chock full of anti-Semites.

 

[west didsblue]

For Netanyahu, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are simply one and the same thing...

Netanyahu: Anti-Israel stances fueled by hatred of ‘the collective Jew’...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-says-anti-israel-sentiments-fueled-by-hatred-of-collective-jew/

"We see anti-Semitism directed against individual Jews, and we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state,"

"Even respected Western opinion leaders have become afflicted with hatred for the Jewish people and the Jewish state,"

Netanyahu is a clever wordsmith, note how he leads with the anti-Semitism word in reference to individual Jews, but holds back from using it when talking about "collective Jews" deciding instead to use the words "we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state," This is not accidental

Again in his second quote, he refrains from accusing unnamed Western opinion leaders of anti-Semitism, but again conflates hatred of individual Jews with hatred of the Jewish State ( his preferred name for Israel).

For Netanyahu Jews and the Jewish state are as one and in the UK mainstream media the distinction is now blurred to non- existence, using that yard stick Labour is chock full of anti-Semites.

Nethanyahu is entitled to his view. I suspect it's not shared by most Jews or even most Israelis.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Nethanyahu is entitled to his view. I suspect it's not shared by most Jews or even most Israelis.

I've no idea whether his views are shared by the majority of Israelis or Jews, but his narrative has traction.

Think on this, Livingstone’s remarks....

"Let's remember that when Hitler won the election in 1932, his policy was that Jews should be moved to Israel......"

"He was supporting Zionism"

and Naz Shah's tweet about plonking Israel in the USA.

Notice they are all about Israel, the first about Hitler's (unsubstantiated) desire for Jew to move there, the second how Hitler (laughably) adhered to the idea of Zionism, that present day Israel is the spiritual home of the Jewish people and Naz Shah's silly remark of how it would be better if Israel was in the USA.

Yet these remarks have sparked an enquiry in to anti-Semitism in the Labour party? How can that be? These cack handed remarks were about Israel and Zionism not Jews and Jewishness? Ah, it can only make sense when one begins to see that the lines between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism have been blurred in to non-existence.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

For Netanyahu, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are simply one and the same thing...

Netanyahu: Anti-Israel stances fueled by hatred of ‘the collective Jew’...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pm-says-anti-israel-sentiments-fueled-by-hatred-of-collective-jew/

"We see anti-Semitism directed against individual Jews, and we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state,"

"Even respected Western opinion leaders have become afflicted with hatred for the Jewish people and the Jewish state,"

Netanyahu is a clever wordsmith, note how he leads with the anti-Semitism word in reference to individual Jews, but holds back from using it when talking about "collective Jews" deciding instead to use the words "we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state," This is not accidental

Again in his second quote, he refrains from accusing unnamed Western opinion leaders of anti-Semitism, but again conflates hatred of individual Jews with hatred of the Jewish State ( his preferred name for Israel).

For Netanyahu Jews and the Jewish state are as one and in the UK mainstream media the distinction is now blurred to non- existence, using that yard stick Labour is chock full of anti-Semites.

well I disagree with him, and I'm anti-Netanyahu as it is.

 

[hilts]

You're right, it's high time we had an Un-British Activities Commitee, I know who I'd pick to chair it....

You're gonna need a bigger chair

 

[Helmet Cole]

I agree it's not automatically antisemitic to question the legitimacy of the State of Israel but I would question the motives of those who had those views if they weren't also questioning the legitimacy of the USA, Australia, Pakistan and quite a few more that involved the settlement of land by people that weren't indigenous to that area (although depending on how far back you look, the Jewish people are indigenous to that area). Suggesting that the residents of that area should be transported elsewhere as Naz Shah did is antisemitic though.

I quite like your point about Australia, the us and Pakistan which is a fair comparison. I would take issue with 'Jewish people' being indigenous to the area though. I personally regard Jewish people as members of a religion rather than a race, just like Christians and Muslims are not a race either. One problem which I'm sure you're aware of is that nearly all the abrahamic cults regard parts of this section of the world as theirs. Its probably the fault of the UK and us that the present day Israeli nation is having to slug it out with the indigenous brown folks that feel it belongs to them. This brings us neatly back to your comparison with the birth of the us and Australia which also necessitated the killing and persecution of poor indigenous brown people.

 

[The perfect fumble]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-36185694

Labour suspends councillors over 'relocate Israel' comments...

But, as Ilyas Aziz, one of the suspended councillors said.....

Mr Aziz said politicians needed to be careful when commenting on the Middle East, but added: "The thing you have got to try and appreciate is that if a particular government - whether it's the Israeli government, whether it's the British government - if the government is actually doing something wrong they should be criticised.

"But not the population itself, it's got nothing to do with them, it's got nothing to do with the religion."

Whoops! Clearly Mr Aziz didn't get the memo on the new Netanyahu norm...

"We see anti-Semitism directed against individual Jews, and we also see this hatred directed against the collective Jew, against the Jewish state,"

In the UK it would seem It's all one and the same now Mr Aziz.

This is really now a debate about free speech, but don't hold your breath waiting for the mainstream media to run with that.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I've no idea whether his views are shared by the majority of Israelis or Jews, but his narrative has traction.

Politician in saying something hyperbolic, stupid or misrepresenting facts shock. I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this discussion which is why I'm losing patience with it.

You seem to be using the line of argument that if all rapists are men, then all men are rapists. As I've said on more than one occasion, criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic in itself. Questioning the legitimacy of Israel is not anti-Semitic in itself. But both of these, particularly the latter, are devices used by anti-Semites. People talk about being "anti-Israel" or "anti-Zionist" but both are meaningless terms as many who are Zionists oppose the policies of the Netanyahu government. You could also argue that any statement that makes the majority of ordinary Jews feel uncomfortable is anti-Semitic.

Let's put it another way - if you believe there's a problem of social integration within certain Muslim communities in the UK, you're not necessarily Islamaphobic. But if you are Islamaphobic. you'll certainly spout the line that there's a problem with integration in certain Muslim communities. If you criticise this Government's policy, you're not necessarily a socialist but if you're a socialist then you'll certainly be critical of most of this Government's policies.

The problem is that people know today that they won't get away with statements that are blatantly racist. So they camouflage their racism behind ambiguous words or views.