Kevin De Bruyne 2016/17

BlueMedic said:
Few things wrong with this post. You're assuming those first 5 games were our best of the season just because we won them without conceding? Also De Bruyne did actually play about 80 minutes in the Palace game, and all of the Newcastle game; don't see how you've given him half a game just because the whole team didn't play well in that half, he was great in the 2nd half so does that count as 2 games?

So he actually played 3 matches of the 8 you've suggested are our best of the season.

Not got much of an opinion on your point of view, but skewing statistics to suit your cause just shows the bias you have.

He may well have been inconsistent, but I doubt we can name a player who's actually been consistent this season. He's got something like 15 goals 15 assists in his first season here hasn't he? That's why he should be in the team for me, far more end product than most of our guys currently (Navas/Silva/Sterling/Nasri).
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Shael is the king of skewed stats and suspect reasoning.
 
gomer27 said:
You could argue aguero. Which is why I didn't say the best but I agree with you
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In retrospect, I'd respectfully differ back to your original position then. Aguero is arguable. So yes you are right, he is one of the best players on the team.
 
BlueMedic said:
My point stands though, if you're going to say "that half doesn't count as he was bad", then surely there must be a "that half counts doubly as he was great"? Otherwise you're just creating a platform to give him negative marks without the chance of recovering. I know you're not actually going to do a full table of his good & bad games with +'s & -'s but you get my point. Doing so makes you appear bias in one direction (which I fear you are).

You're also still ignoring the fact that De Bruyne played in the Palace game. Like it or not he was on the pitch for 70 minutes in a game you yourself have just claimed was one of our best of the season.

I'm not here to argue whether I think De Bruyne is great or rubbish, just don't feel you portray your information very fairly (haven't read the whole thread obviously, just the recent pages). Personally I like the guy & I think you're actually significantly underselling his work rate in the press, he's far better than others in our team (in fact others than directly compete for his position, i.e. Silva/Toure) in my opinion. Yes some games like yesterday he doesn't do it, but Toure/Silva essentially never do it so I see that as a bonus for him, not a negative as you seem to.
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I think you're over complicating things mate.

We were discussing how many of the teams best performances came when DeBruyne was in the team.

He was awful in the first half against Newcastle. The team was awful in the first half against Newcastle. So it doesn't make much sense to include that as a game in which he and the team played well.

This isn't a university thesis, we don't have to adhere to internationally recognised statistical standards. It's two blokes chatting shit on an internet forum about football. I'm not going to count his first half against Newcastle as a positive. If you want to, fill your boots.

You're quite right about the Palace game. So in my view, he's played two and a quarter games out of our 8 best performances. If you have a different view, different statistical standards, feel free to use them instead.

But even if you wish to argue he's played in 3 out of 8 of our best performances, it's still hardly conclusive evidence that he's an undroppable cornerstone of our team.
 
itisrising said:
Our win percentage up to that point isn't a large sample size and dismisses the fact that we had David Silva at his best. It would be disingenious for you to claim it had to do with KDB and I think you'll find that losing Silva has been a huge loss to us as he's been so vital to the style of football we play.

With KDB we've been inconsistent and without him we weren't any better. There's nothing, except missing key factors out, that suggests that we are worse with KDB. You've simply tried to make correlation = causation which isn't the case especially considering there isn't even a strong correlation to back up your point.

And I think the the stats would back up the idea that he is a very hard-working player.
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DeBruyne got injured at the end of January.

Well over half way through the season.

David Silva at his best? No.

This thread was started because there was a thread before that that questioned whether David Silva's form should be "tolerated" any more and questioned whether he should be "shipped out". It certainly wasn't during a period when David Silva was at his best.

I've not suggested we are a better side without DeBruyne. I think you liked the sound of the correlation / causation line and you've run with it without really thinking about what it means.

What I've suggested is that it's not cut and dry that DeBruyne should be an automatic starter. There is a false perception that we can't win without DeBruyne. That our form fell off a cliff when DeBruyne got injured. It's nonsense. It's up there with David Brightwell having a nightmare in the 5-0 against The Shite when in reality he didn't even play.

I'll repeat it again for the god knows how many times, DeBruyne is a fantastic talent, on his day a brilliant, unplayable footballer. But he's inconsistent, he has as many anonymous games as he does match winning ones.

The team is very capable of playing well and winning without him. If you think this season is too small a sample size, well then I'd invite you to look at our league performances in the 4 years before he arrived compared with this season.

Again, I'm not suggesting it's all his fault. What I'm saying is, the idea that he has to start every game or we're incapable of playing well, is absolute bollocks.
 
Shaelumstash said:
DeBruyne got injured at the end of January.

Well over half way through the season.

David Silva at his best? No.

This thread was started because there was a thread before that that questioned whether David Silva's form should be "tolerated" any more and questioned whether he should be "shipped out". It certainly wasn't during a period when David Silva was at his best.

I've not suggested we are a better side without DeBruyne. I think you liked the sound of the correlation / causation line and you've run with it without really thinking about what it means.

What I've suggested is that it's not cut and dry that DeBruyne should be an automatic starter. There is a false perception that we can't win without DeBruyne. That our form fell off a cliff when DeBruyne got injured. It's nonsense. It's up there with David Brightwell having a nightmare in the 5-0 against The Shite when in reality he didn't even play.

I'll repeat it again for the god knows how many times, DeBruyne is a fantastic talent, on his day a brilliant, unplayable footballer. But he's inconsistent, he has as many anonymous games as he does match winning ones.

The team is very capable of playing well and winning without him. If you think this season is too small a sample size, well then I'd invite you to look at our league performances in the 4 years before he arrived compared with this season.

Again, I'm not suggesting it's all his fault. What I'm saying is, the idea that he has to start every game or we're incapable of playing well, is absolute bollocks.
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Well you claim not to be arguing that we are a better side without KDB but you constantly imply that our best form is without him. That's the issue that I had and why I stated that correlation doesn't equal causation because you alluded to us being a stronger side without him. There were many factors that went into that and when he was goine, we weren't very good either.

I haven't argued that KDB is automatic starter as I haven't argued that anybody is an automatic starter. It is earned on merit. And if you look at merit, then he deserves to start.
 
itisrising said:
Well you claim not to be arguing that we are a better side without KDB but you constantly imply that our best form is without him. That's the issue that I had and why I stated that correlation doesn't equal causation because you alluded to us being a stronger side without him. There were many factors that went into that and when he was goine, we weren't very good either.

I haven't argued that KDB is automatic starter as I haven't argued that anybody is an automatic starter. It is earned on merit. And if you look at merit, then he deserves to start.
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I agree with you, it should be earned on merit. But based on the merit of his performance on Wednesday night it could be argued him and Yaya should never play for the club again.

It's not cut and dry that we are a better side with or without him. The stats would suggest that early in the season we were better without him. I'm not sure of the stats over the full season, but my guess would be that there isn't much difference in our results with him in or out of the team.

Based on performances, as I've posted about earlier, many of our best performances this season have come without DeBruyne in the side. The first 4 games of the season, Sevilla away etc.

So your assertion that "if you look at merit, he deserves to start" isn't quite as clear cut as you suggest.

Is he one of our 11 most talented players? Absolutely.

Is he our best player to play in a free role with no defensive responsibilities against a side that give him lots of time and space, and push up high leaving acres of space in behind them? Absolutely.

Is he better than Sterling at left wing in a 433? I think that's open to debate.

Is he a better playmaker than David Silva when he's denied space against a packed, stubborn defence? Is he fuck.

So, one of our most talented players? Undoubtedly. Is the team always better for having him in it? That's open for debate depending on the game.
 
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