Kloppy

[Paulmcfc2703]

Even against those teams, if everybody's fit who you drop? If Aguero, Tevez or Dzeko were completely left out of a squad and Lopes was picked everybody would criticise Mancini for that.

These are exactly the problems facing the manager. Only against Villa were we ever "leading comfortably". Mancini had earlier played Razak and Suarez against Villa in a much changed team in the Capital One Cup and we had lost 4-2. He had brought Helan on as well. Against Watford he had brought Lopes on with a "comfortable" 2-0 lead, late on, and Lopes did well and scored. But picking a bench of kids in the sure and certain knowledge of a "comfortable lead" is a dangerous game for a club chasing trophies, especially when you look at the quality of those you could choose. The conclusion is clear; Mancini does not believe the "kids" are good enough yet. And I have to say that our academy is like other aspects of the club - developing. The position for "Kloppy" was different. He arrived at Dortmund in 2008 at a club only just getting over the near bankruptcy of 2005. He got through his first season but was dissatisfied with his team and went for youth. The point is that German youth development had been completely overhauled after the 200 euros, was on a different planet from anything in England and Dortmund were beneficiaries, having a group of excellent young players there who had been there since they were kids. City's academy was pale in comparison. Klopp has done an excellent job, but the lines of development were the only ones available to him and they were very fit for purpose.

Well said, it's a point I was trying to make in another thread earlier but didn't put it as succinctly or as eloquently as that.

Of the side that played last night only Gotze & Schmelzer came through Dortmunds academy. The rest were scouted and bought by Klopp. If anything it just shows how fantastic Klopp is at finding star players in the making.

 

[Rolee]

These are exactly the problems facing the manager. Only against Villa were we ever "leading comfortably". Mancini had earlier played Razak and Suarez against Villa in a much changed team in the Capital One Cup and we had lost 4-2. He had brought Helan on as well. Against Watford he had brought Lopes on with a "comfortable" 2-0 lead, late on, and Lopes did well and scored. But picking a bench of kids in the sure and certain knowledge of a "comfortable lead" is a dangerous game for a club chasing trophies, especially when you look at the quality of those you could choose. The conclusion is clear; Mancini does not believe the "kids" are good enough yet. And I have to say that our academy is like other aspects of the club - developing. The position for "Kloppy" was different. He arrived at Dortmund in 2008 at a club only just getting over the near bankruptcy of 2005. He got through his first season but was dissatisfied with his team and went for youth. The point is that German youth development had been completely overhauled after the 200 euros, was on a different planet from anything in England and Dortmund were beneficiaries, having a group of excellent young players there who had been there since they were kids. City's academy was pale in comparison. Klopp has done an excellent job, but the lines of development were the only ones available to him and they were very fit for purpose.

Well said, it's a point I was trying to make in another thread earlier but didn't put it as succinctly or as eloquently as that.

Of the side that played last night only Gotze & Schmelzer came through Dortmunds academy. The rest were scouted and bought by Klopp. If anything it just shows how fantastic Klopp is at finding star players in the making.

It isn't specific to Dortmund's academy, as BluesinceHydeRoad has pointed out its more to do with the overhaul in the German system as a whole. Hopefully the new structure being put in place in England will have the same effect for English clubs.

 

[fatbloke]

The problem is you only ever see the best of Klopp, what about the 5 defeats and the 7 draws in the league this season? Or finishing a Champions League group of Arsenal, Olympiakos and Marseille with just 4 points, we had a tougher group and finished on 10 points last year. I suppose Dortmund were top class and got unlucky in those games because obviously Klopp has no faults as a manager at all, he hasn't even fallen out with a player either I guess?

You lot need to take your fucking heads for a wobble. Mancini isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but neither is any other manager in football.

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

The problem is you only ever see the best of Klopp, what about the 5 defeats and the 7 draws in the league this season? Or finishing a Champions League group of Arsenal, Olympiakos and Marseille with just 4 points, we had a tougher group and finished on 10 points last year. I suppose Dortmund were top class and got unlucky in those games because obviously Klopp has no faults as a manager at all, he hasn't even fallen out with a player either I guess?

You lot need to take your fucking heads for a wobble. Mancini isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but neither is any other manager in football.

I don't think anybody is saying Klopp is perfect.

Like City are with United, Dortmund are trailing Munich by a considerable distance and both teams find themselves comfortably in 2nd place. The problem Klopp has though is that he hasn't got the finances that Mancini has had at City (or United & Munich for that matter) and, as a result, he hasn't had the chance to build a squad that is capable of putting in a strong challenge on both the Domestic & European fronts. They walked the league last year and destroyed Munich in the process but, due to a lack of strength in depth, suffered in the CL. This year, they've struggled in the league (similar to City) but have been sensational in Europe.

Considering both budgets of City & Dortmund, IMO, it's evident that Klopp appears to be getting the most from his. Klopp needs to use the money he is going to get from (yet again) selling his best players and add depth to his squad so that they can challenge on both fronts.

The fact is that Klopp, in his relatively short career in European football, has already progressed further than Mancini ever has and has done so with a budget lesser than the majority of Premiership clubs.

There's no denying that it could be a risk for a team outside of Klopp's comfort zone to make a move for him - as you say, nobody is perfect - but his record as a manager so far can only put him in good stead.

 

[noise]

Lol it's not even close, Klopp is easily better at managing players. Just look at the money they earn from Klopp's ability to turn players into superstars. Mancini turns players into flops: Mario, Dzeko, Sinclaire..

Not to mention Klopp is reinventing total football. While Mancini is struggling to get the team to do a simple formation transition.

 

[taconinja]

Lol it's not even close, Klopp is easily better at managing players. Just look at the money they earn from Klopp's ability to turn players into superstars. Mancini turns players into flops: Mario, Dzeko, Sinclaire..

Not to mention Klopp is reinventing total football. While Mancini is struggling to get the team to do a simple formation transition.

Klopp won't transform Dzeko into anything other than what he is now.

 

[blueste41]

Taking the derby as an example, our bench was Pantilimon, Lescott, Dzeko, Kolarov, Javi Garcia, Aguero, Toure. This is with Rodwell injured and Sinclair not included. Which first team players would you drop for a 17 year old just in case were 3.0 up?

If you read my post properly you would see that I said 'lower' opposition which obviously does not include the likes of united, Chelsea, etc. There is no reason not to give the kids a chance occasionally if you're leading comfortably against a Wigan, QPR, or Aston Villa. Thats not going to hurt anyone and the kids will get some experience and confidence.

So lets say the same subs were available against one of the lesser teams, which one would you leave out so Suarez could be on it?

 

[spinzer]

Yeah all his players love him so much they fuck off at the first opportunity despite being able to realistically win everything if they stayed at Dortmund. Klopp is a good manager and were Mancini to go I wouldn't be against his appointment but Mancini is doing a good job. Ferguson has had worse seasons than this managing United. I'd hate for bobby to come on here and see these threads pining for other managers. He's done a lot for City, lets show him some respect and give him a chance to get right what went wrong this season.

-- Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:29 am --

Do you know how well our EDS are doing at the moment?

When was the last time you saw them & who in particular stood out?

Well Suarez just scored twice last game. And every game, week in week out, lopes keeps on creating so many chances for his team, also a good amount of clear cut chances. He is a very impressing youngster with a tally of goals and assists behind his name.
Pozo did score in in 7 games in a row, he did not get a chance, not even a bench spot and now he is injured. just great..

He also ended that run by getting sent off for being a petulant little dickspring proving he isn't ready for the first team. Besides when would you have played these players, given that we went out of the league cup at the first hurdle ? Would a 10 minute cameo off the bench really make them into world beaters ?

no, but 10 minutes of the bench, would feel like the world for these kids, and aspire them to push on. And who knows, they might actually do something good in the 10 minutes? Like lopes, he scored a goal within 3 minutes.

 

[LoveCity]

The problem is you only ever see the best of Klopp, what about the 5 defeats and the 7 draws in the league this season?

Klopp is not blessed with the money to enrich his squad with high level rotation players. Subsequently their results have suffered a lot when a). forced to rotate and b). their top players are tired (the CL effect). Drag up a list of their results and have a look just how many of their dropped points were pre/post-Champions League.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/44/Fixtures/Germany-Borussia-Dortmund" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/44/Fixtu ... a-Dortmund</a>

ie. First BL loss of season after Ajax, second BL loss of season before Real, third BL loss of season after City, fourth BL loss of season before Shakhtar, fifth BL loss of season after Shakthar... total losses in BL this season: 5, EVERY loss before or after a Champions League game. Feel free to argue against that but I believe that's a little more than a coincidence.

Or finishing a Champions League group of Arsenal, Olympiakos and Marseille with just 4 points, we had a tougher group and finished on 10 points last year.

This is an argument FOR Klopp not AGAINST. It shows he and his young team failed in his first effort (rather than his 6th/7th), learned from his mistake and made adjustments, and returned to take the Champions League by storm in his second attempt and in arguably the hardest group in recent years. On the contrary, our manager has gone back every single season and played the same way with the same flaws that have been systematically exploited by the cultured minds of European football. Last season's double header against Napoli when Mazzarri tactically outclassed Mancini twice was the first time I ever seriously doubted Mancini's level.

You lot need to take your fucking heads for a wobble. Mancini isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but neither is any other manager in football.

Perfection is impossible in football but it doesn't mean there aren't ability levels/tiers. Mancini is a very good manager who sits on maybe the third or fourth level. But there are better and Klopp is better. Not just better but it could be argued better suited to the vision of a club with rich youth development that ours has, an environment Klopp has already flourished in, for example nurturing Mario Gotze from his first team debut aged 17 into becoming a world class young player.

Personally I'd love to see what Klopp could do with a young player with the outstanding raw ability of Marcos Lopes. I don't get the same excitement thinking about how Mancini could develop Lopes. Indeed, Lopes hasn't been seen since he got 3 minutes on the pitch and scored - something Scott Sinclair has failed to do in 390 minutes on the pitch yet we still see him preferred on the bench while Lopes has to make do with the U21 team...

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

The problem is you only ever see the best of Klopp, what about the 5 defeats and the 7 draws in the league this season?

Klopp is not blessed with the money to enrich his squad with high level rotation players. Subsequently their results have suffered a lot when a). forced to rotate and b). their top players are tired (the CL effect). Drag up a list of their results and have a look just how many of their dropped points were pre/post-Champions League.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/44/Fixtures/Germany-Borussia-Dortmund" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/44/Fixtu ... a-Dortmund</a>

ie. First BL loss of season after Ajax, second BL loss of season before Real, third BL loss of season after City, fourth BL loss of season before Shakhtar, fifth BL loss of season after Shakthar... total losses in BL this season: 5, EVERY loss before or after a Champions League game. Feel free to argue against that but I believe that's a little more than a coincidence.

Or finishing a Champions League group of Arsenal, Olympiakos and Marseille with just 4 points, we had a tougher group and finished on 10 points last year.

This is an argument FOR Klopp not AGAINST. It shows he and his young team failed in his first effort (rather than his 6th/7th), learned from his mistake and made adjustments, and returned to take the Champions League by storm in his second attempt and in arguably the hardest group in recent years. On the contrary, our manager has gone back every single season and played the same way with the same flaws that have been systematically exploited by the cultured minds of European football. Last season's double header against Napoli when Mazzarri tactically outclassed Mancini twice was the first time I ever seriously doubted Mancini's level.

You lot need to take your fucking heads for a wobble. Mancini isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but neither is any other manager in football.

Perfection is impossible in football but it doesn't mean there aren't ability levels/tiers. Mancini is a very good manager who sits on maybe the third or fourth level. But there are better and Klopp is better. Not just better but it could be argued better suited to the vision of a club with rich youth development that ours has, an environment Klopp has already flourished in, for example nurturing Mario Gotze from his first team debut aged 17 into becoming a world class young player.

Personally I'd love to see what Klopp could do with a young player with the outstanding raw ability of Marcos Lopes. I don't get the same excitement thinking about how Mancini could develop Lopes. Indeed, Lopes hasn't been seen since he got 3 minutes on the pitch and scored - something Scott Sinclair has failed to do in 390 minutes on the pitch yet we still see him preferred on the bench while Lopes has to make do with the U21 team...

Basically, a more detailed version of my post.

Totally agree.