Liverpool bus damaged on journey back from Etihad Stadium today

[Benjani56]

Hmmmm, subtle difference to us then as we never sang the murderers bit.

I was in 109 and heard both

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Anyway that's the last I'm ever going to comment on the subject.

Does that mean you’re not going to answer my question?!

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It’s drilled into journalists that they must present the counterpoint to an opinion or belief within the body of an article, or a broadcast. So when someone is on trial, even when the evidence seems overwhelming, they will make a point of stating that the defendant denies the charges. Same if the government is accused of something on a political show; the broadcaster will make a point of saying that the government denies/disputes this, even if they aren’t in the studio.

It shows the grip that Liverpool FC have over our media, and press in particular, when football supporters of other clubs are not afforded the same degree of journalistic balance. What this song is about is presented as a matter of fact, rather than providing any counter argument whatsoever. This is especially insidious because the people writing the article will be well aware of that viewpoint. And yet it’s never even aired as a possibility, because to do so would require listing the charge sheet - and they aren’t going to do that.

Ever since that Ken Bigley article it’s like a collective fear has gripped the entire media about reporting along any lines of being critical of the culture associated with Liverpool Football Club.

It’s Nelsonian blindness on an endemic scale.

 

[urban genie]

This was a great idea, it made me go look at the Bluemoon threads from 2012.

Chants @ The Swamp Today

Reports were that there were some "unsavory" chants @ The Swamp today in regards to Liverpol and the Hillsboro tragedy. What exactly were they and is it getting much coverage over there???

forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

Scum fans sink to new depths at Anfield today.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_uLFvJwfrc Disgusting bastards. They should be docked points for that.

forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

Turns out absolutely everyone knew what it was about straight away, including a few posters who seem to have bad memories.


Anyway that's the last I'm ever going to comment on the subject.

I will say inly 2 things on this


1. this just proves the fickleness of football rivalry, in 2012 we didn't care about the red scouse and 99.99% hated the rags and our title challengers so there is no suprise in the direction of the thread(though some do point out rag mate clqimimg it is about suarez/hysel not hillborough) the fact it coincided with the inquest results also adds to the arguement.
Also add 11 years on in 20212 we had not had the same levels of shithousery from the liverpool fans as now and the last 6 years has changed that

2. If you read through the everton forum posts, they admit they believe the rags may be horrible cunts using in its meaning, but they are adamant never have, much like most on here and chelsea/forest fans also said.

Once again only 2 fan bases have used this as a song that linked it/used it in regards to Hilsborough and as usual it is the 2 most awful fan bases in the country.


The song has 2 meaning depending on certain fans, better to just bin it off and stop using it, as it doesn't help us in any way and is pretty crap anyway.

on a personal note never sang because of it's duplicity of meaning, and when the south stand started on sat I turned to me dad and said, thats us getting pelters tomorrow from the press.

 

[Gone for a Burton]

Personally I’d never sing it. If people do and genuinely don’t have even a thought in their mind about connotations to certain events, then fair enough I suppose. Each to their own, it’s always a minefield when it comes to intent, be it overt or not. I’d rather just steer clear of any of it when I know it could be interpreted differently to what the intention is.

I’m content just to call them cunts.

Call me old fashioned if you like butI sing AND call them cunts !!

 

[ysmsa]

New on me, never knew united sing it, I sang it because their fans are winging fuckers, as is their manager, fuck all to do with Hillsborough, would never mock that in a million years.

This song was a huge news story a few years ago (probably more years than I remember tbh) when Rags were at Klanfield for a game.

There was bad blood leading up to the match, can't remember why but this song was in the news and attempts made to stop it being sung.

Anyway, Rags were kept in the ground long after match finished and the song was belted out loud and clear by the Rag fans. Can anyone recall the game and year?

 

[ysmsa]

Personally I’d never sing it. If people do and genuinely don’t have even a thought in their mind about connotations to certain events, then fair enough I suppose. Each to their own, it’s always a minefield when it comes to intent, be it overt or not. I’d rather just steer clear of any of it when I know it could be interpreted differently to what the intention is.

I’m content just to call them cunts.

Be careful, linking a football chant to a minefield!

This path we are now on will never end.

You seriously have to think carefully about saying anything these days, an innocent or even well known saying can have historical links to something unsavoury which could land you in trouble!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I was in 109 and heard both

I was in 109 and never heard 'Murderers' but 'Always the victims' was definitely sung, in reaction to Henderson trying to get Rodri sent off.

I had a Twitter spat over the last couple of days with a Liverpool fan, who was clearly intelligent and literate. My point was that the majority of people who sing it don't explicitly associate it with Hillsborough. That there are several examples where LFC and their fans have behaved as the victims. Heysel is the obvious one, the Suarez incident, the Ederson/Mane incident, etc.

Then there's this ridiculous booing of the National Anthem, which they justify by this notion that the whole Establishment is anti-Liverpool despite Everton fans not doing it. But even so, scousers, a demographic which doesn't include most Liverpool fans, whether football supporters or not, do have a certain psyche.

Then there's this ridiculous notion that they're a 'socialist club' because of something Shankly once said. (He also said that when you're second, you're nothing but they conveniently forget that.) This despite the fact that they were created out of thin air and a Tory's cheque book, because he wanted to make more money. They've been central in every initiative over the last 40 or so years to create a gulf between the haves and have-nots in football.

Their own rise to modern success was funded by gambling money made by another arch-capitalist. And their current owner made his money via the ultra-capitalist route of commodities trading, where he established an algorithm for buying and selling various commodities, but not to take possession of them, add value in some way and sell them at a profit. He wouldn't have a clue what to do if a shipload of wheat or whatever arrived at his door. He exploited small price movements in the market to make his billions.

This guy claimed that it was clear that ATV was "clearly 100% about Hillsborough" (to use his words). Yet I come on here (which he described as a 'cesspit' by the way) and see posters I know personally and hugely respect like @blueyorkie and @Chris in London, both mature, intelligent, professionals who can think through an argument (alright - some artistic licence there) say they don't for one moment think about Hillsborough when singing it. I've made my views perfectly clear to posters who still mindlessly regurgitate the Sun and SYP's appalling mendacity.

But that brings me to the point that I wasn't aware of until recently, which was that the Suarez/Evra incident occurred just days after the Hillsborough Independent Panel reported its findings. These, of course, fully and incisively supported the findings of the Taylor Report, which was that the behaviour of Liverpool fans played no meaningful part in the tragic events of that day.

In my view therefore, that confluence of the first use of the song and the HIP report publication gives enough reason to desist from singing it.

(The outcome of the Twitter spat by the way was that he demanded I "condemn" the song. I wasn't prepared to do that specifically, for the reason that it's a very grey area, but it's preferable not to sing it, as I've made clear above.)

 

[shemnel]

this thread.

if there are connotations, that people sort of know about and definitely don't mean when they sing it, why not just come up with another song? cant be that hard? [remembers shit Haaland song...]

 

[Blue Mist]

I was in 109 and never heard 'Murderers' but 'Always the victims' was definitely sung, in reaction to Henderson trying to get Rodri sent off.

I had a Twitter spat over the last couple of days with a Liverpool fan, who was clearly intelligent and literate. My point was that the majority of people who sing it don't explicitly associate it with Hillsborough. That there are several examples where LFC and their fans have behaved as the victims. Heysel is the obvious one, the Suarez incident, the Ederson/Mane incident, etc.

Then there's this ridiculous booing of the National Anthem, which they justify by this notion that the whole Estsblishment is anti-Liverpool despite Everton fans not doing it. But even so, scousers, a demographic which doesn't include most Liverpool fans, whether football supporters or not, do have a certain psyche.

Then there's this ridiculous notion that they're a 'socialist club' because of something Shankly once said. (He also said that when you're second, you're nothing but they conveniently forget that.) This despite the fact that they were created out of thin air and a Tory's cheque book, because he wanted to make more money. They've been central in every initiative over the last 40 or so years to create a gulf between the haves and have-nots in football.

Their own rise to modern success was funded by gambling money made by another arch-capitalist. And their current owner made his money via the ultra-capitalist route of commodities trading, where he established an algorithm for buying and selling various commodities, but not to take possession of them, add value in some way and sell them at a profit. He wouldn't have a clue what to do if a shipload of wheat or whatever arrived at his door. He exploited small price movements in the market to make his billions.

This guy claimed that it was clear that ATV was "clearly 100% about Hillsborough" (to use his words). Yet I come on here (which he described as a 'cesspit' by the way) and see posters I know personally and hugely respect like @blueyorkie and @Chris in London, both mature, intelligent, professionals who can think through an argument (alright - some artistic licence there) say they don't for one moment think about Hillsborough when singing it. I've made my views perfectly clear to posters who still mindlessly regurgitate the Sun and SYP's appalling mendacity.

But that brings me to the point that I wasn't aware of until recently, which was that the Suarez/Evra incident occurred just days after the Hillsborough Independent Panel reported its findings. These, of course, fully and incisively supported the findings of the Taylor Report, which was that the behaviour of Liverpool fans played no meaningful part in the tragic events of that day.

In my view therefore, that confluence of the first use of the song and the HIP report publication gives enough reason to desist from singing it.

(The outcome of the Twitter spat by the way was that he demanded I "condemn" the song. I wasn't prepared to do that specifically, for the reason that it's a very grey area, but it's preferable not to sing it, as I've made clear above.)

Your twitter spat is exactly why I think we should keep singing it. 'He demanded' is typical dipper. They cannot reason nor discuss anything about their club, they are always right and everyone else is wrong. If anyone challenges the club or the fans behaviour they are rounded on by politicians, the media and of course the feral mob.
One name not mentioned during the Always the Victims It's Never Your Fault debate, Colin Mafham.