Liverpool - post match thread.

[bobom]

Agreed. I think most expected us to compete for the league and see some great games of football. Hopefully we improve.

But you can only buy who is available and decent value for money. I think it's pretty clear we tried to buy another central defender in the summer but there wasn't anyone around who ticked all the boxes: already world class, value for money, can pass it out, wants to join us, not older than mid-late twenties.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

It'a pretty obvious that I wasn't talking about players that don't put a shift in - that's a different matter altogether. I didn't see a lack of motivation yesterday - I saw Liverpool, in the first half at least, do a slightly better job in negating our attacking threat than we did theirs. That doesn't equate to players not trying or not putting enough effort in. Maybe you're one of those that thinks every time we get a negative result means the players haven't tried.

I'll also add that footballers, no matter how good they are, can't always play at their best level and they can't turn it on and off like a light switch. Furthermore, you can't just expect us to steamroll every team we play - it'a 11 v 11 and as far from an exact science as you can get.

It sounds like you're suggesting we get rid of not just the manager, but also some of our best players as well because they committed the cardinal sin of being human and having an off day.

I usually think it is too easy for fans to say players aren't arsed or don't try, it isn't something I tend to do (I much prefer to blame a manager if I'm being honest). But, we all know that Pep's way requires exceptional intensity particularly when not in possession otherwise the whole thing is likely to unravel and it is definitely reasonable to ask whether the players we have are either able or inclined to put in those extra yards. For me the players did put in those extra efforts that are required for the first couple of months and by and large haven't in the last couple of months. Someone like Silva was working like a bastard to win the ball back from the very first minute of matches for a while, now he is doing it for the odd spell here and there but by and large for me has just gone back to the Silva of previous years who didn't press especially well. The reality is that if we are going to play with a high line then if every one of those front players doesn't work their balls off to press from the very first minute then we are going to be horribly exposed to shitty counter attack goals where the opposition have to do virtually nothing to earn their goals. That second half against Arsenal, the main difference for me was that we started pressing properly and winning the ball in their half like we did in most matches in August/September. It changes absolutely everything for us and I don't really know why we only do it for the odd half in the odd match these days (usually at the point where the shit appears to be hitting the fan). Makes me think some players are choosing when they can be bothered carrying out one of the fundamentals of our system. If they are physically not up to it and were already knackered by October/November then fair enough but still worrying, if it is a choice to not press then that's not on.

 

[geoff clipp]

No I'm not kidding I said it on here while Milner was still with us, a good man manager tell Milner you want him as your right back, be a regular part of a great side who go on to win many things
Perfect right back, reads the game, can tackle, be great going forward, puts good ball in
We've really missed a chance to strengthen our defence

But we had one of the best right backs in the premier league two or three seasons ago when this conversation would need to have been had. Doesn't matter anyway as I've come to conclusion that he left for the money rather than game time.

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

Some massive overreactions on here but I share the concerns about whether the current players can adapt to Pep's system.

Aguero had a poor game and was not really involved in any of the buildup play. If we had a tall, powerful striker in the middle then I doubt teams would be so willing to let us have so much possession. If we had a Niall Quinn/Andy Carroll type player on the pitch instead of Kun yesterday then the outcome might have been different.

I am not advocating that we move to this but as a plan B it has some value as Arsenal have proved with the late goals snatched by Giroud this season.

Agreed. Bring Back Dzeko? How many goals do we score like the Liverpool goal ?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

None of whom are prem proven except Sanchez whose record does not compare to Sergio. Lacazette and Icardi not fit to lace aguero shoots imo. Aubameyeng had the chance to sign and has stated he wants Madrid and again isn't at sergios level. Griezmann would be a great addition but not sure he's an upgrade.

Aguero wasn't PL proven when we bought him. Neither were Drogba, Henry, Costa, Bergkamp, Suarez or Sanchez when they were bought. So that's a nonsense argument.

 

[deano ou812]

Agreed,but zab is more attack minded hence why pep picks him ahead of sagna kolarov can't defend but is again attack minded doesn't make it right but it's his decision and the buck stops with him ..

 

[Lancet Fluke]

None of whom are prem proven except Sanchez whose record does not compare to Sergio. Lacazette and Icardi not fit to lace aguero shoots imo. Aubameyeng had the chance to sign and has stated he wants Madrid and again isn't at sergios level. Griezmann would be a great addition but not sure he's an upgrade.

Aubameyang may or may not be up to Aguero's level generally but he offers something very different from Sergio and I suppose it is about whether what he offers will suit Pep more than what Sergio offers.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Aubameyang may or may not be up to Aguero's level generally but he offers something very different from Sergio and I suppose it is about whether what he offers will suit Pep more than what Sergio offers.

And that's the key point. A team is the sum of its parts and currently ours is ten men plus Aguero. And the stats don't lie. We're better off without him.

 

[The-Dogs-Pollocks]

But you can only buy who is available and decent value for money. I think it's pretty clear we tried to buy another central defender in the summer but there wasn't anyone around who ticked all the boxes: already world class, value for money, can pass it out, wants to join us, not older than mid-late twenties.

We could have gone for a solid centre half. They dont all need to be world beaters. Just better than what we've got. Spurs and southampton have managed to get some decent centre halves in for reasonable dosh. We won the league with Joleon Lescott!

 

[BAB.DAB]

And that's the key point. A team is the sum of its parts and currently ours is ten men plus Aguero. And the stats don't lie. We're better off without him.

Correct Aguero is currently not right for us he needs to change his way or leave

 

[simon23]

Well I think if us fans can see the issues then Pep Guadiola can. The reality is it's probably a bit harder to rectify than us armchair managers think but you're not wrong.

Im sure its harder than it is but he is making the same mistakes every time we play high energy teams......

for me this is what we should have done yesterday

Bravo

Sagna Stones Ottomendi Clichy
fernando ferna
sterling silva/kdb nolito
kun

Now who you pick out of KDB or silva for yesterday i don't know so thats a very difficult one

Nolito would have given us more work rate and more control in the midfield

Fernando - a shield i front of the back 4

two fullbacks with a bit more pace at least who can also tuck into midfield

Thats with the injuries at present

Without injuries you would have Kompany in there instead of Otto

Maybe Sane instead of Nolito


This is obviously against the better high pressure teams

against the hull's etc you can play more attacking teams and probably drop fernando and play yaya/gundongan and probably silva and kdb...but not all of them against the better teams


You ask the team to stay compact and as a whole unit defensively for the first 20-30mins at least...yesterday the gaps between the 3 parts of the team were huge until the second half when as a outfield unit of 10 we played much more compact and further up the pitch....this should have happened from the onset but we were far too spread out all the time.....huge mistake but that is on Pep

We can do it...we have done it.....but he is only changing it when either he needs to or is reacting to something (which is an upset from Pellergrinis not even reacting to it!)

 

[sir baconface]

I see the knee jerk brigade are out in force. We controlled the game from start to finish.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Our players not being played to their strengths. Chelsea players are and they look better and stronger then what they really are. Put Cahill instead of Stones and he would struggle. Put Costa for Kun ask him to do what we ask from Kun and he would struggle. We are very much like Spain were in world cup 2014. Tiki-taka only works with very good high pressing version and lots of pace. Without these its easy to defend against and not very hard to punish defensively.

Navas, Sterling, Kun , KDB they would be perfect for a counter attack team. They all like big places ahead of themsleves instead of it they have to play in a system that makes them face 2 opponents every times in very tight places sometimes without time to even turn and look.

Chelsea sometimes happily lets other teams have a bit of possession in return when they win it back they have actually time and place to make quick attacks. If we find Sterling, Kolarov, Navas with some free place on the wings and they can cross usually no one in the box maybe Kun and 3 defenders but thats it. Silva, KDB very far from action in these situations.

We dont do quick attacks lots of counter chances we have is when Kun or Sterling gets the ball at half way line. And obviously 2-3 opponents still on their own half still. Usually our player runs a bit and turn back waits for others to join and this 10-20-30 seconds more than enough to turn it into the usualy parked bus situation and we often play the bacpass so Otamendi, Stones start the attack and the sideways tiki-taka begins again.

Even Pool were happy to give us the possession in our half they did not press our defenders much until someone with the ball went over the halfway line.

Majority of our possession comes from the area between our box and the halfway line, we passed the ball a lot in that area without being pressed much, meaningless passes without any danger to create something. While we are passing there quite far from opponent box they have time to organize themselves, pick up any runner, mark more dangeorus players tightly upfront.

You're spot on, every City fan I've spoken to can see it, the question is why can't Pep? I find myself at games thinking "just play f***ing football!". Watching City of late is like watching some Pep inspired football experiment taking place on the pitch while the opposition gets on with the unfussy job of winning the game. I was no fan of Pellers, who's sole tactic often seemed to consist of no more than just telling the lads "to go out and play", but I'd swap go out and play now for the dogs dinner we're being served up.

I thought Pep was the guy who locked himself in a room and would emerge days later with a plan to destroy the opposition, we get glimpses of it but that's all. I'm not sure I like the idea that City will be a footballing experiment based on trial and error for Pep to hone his Premier league management skills, while lesser teams continue to hoof the ball over the midfield to the big man who bangs it in to the back of the net and walks away with the points.

My wife and I are about to drive to Manchester, a five hour trip, we've booked a cheap hotel, then we'll watch the game tomorrow and drive five hours back, anyone here going to predict the result? It's a f***ing lottery!

 

[Lancet Fluke]

And that's the key point. A team is the sum of its parts and currently ours is ten men plus Aguero. And the stats don't lie. We're better off without him.

I love Sergio but sadly I think it is time for us to cash in assuming we can get someone who will work in this system. I'd love us to get one of the topo replacements like Aubameyang or Griezmann but it may even be that Pep doesn't feel the need to go out and get one of them. Who knows, maybe Jesus will be the man and the Aguero money will be used to get a couple of full backs or a centre back who knows how to actually defend?

 

[The-Dogs-Pollocks]

I usually think it is too easy for fans to say players aren't arsed or don't try, it isn't something I tend to do (I much prefer to blame a manager if I'm being honest). But, we all know that Pep's way requires exceptional intensity particularly when not in possession otherwise the whole thing is likely to unravel and it is definitely reasonable to ask whether the players we have are either able or inclined to put in those extra yards. For me the players did put in those extra efforts that are required for the first couple of months and by and large haven't in the last couple of months. Someone like Silva was working like a bastard to win the ball back from the very first minute of matches for a while, now he is doing it for the odd spell here and there but by and large for me has just gone back to the Silva of previous years who didn't press especially well. The reality is that if we are going to play with a high line then if every one of those front players doesn't work their balls off to press from the very first minute then we are going to be horribly exposed to shitty counter attack goals where the opposition have to do virtually nothing to earn their goals. That second half against Arsenal, the main difference for me was that we started pressing properly and winning the ball in their half like we did in most matches in August/September. It changes absolutely everything for us and I don't really know why we only do it for the odd half in the odd match these days (usually at the point where the shit appears to be hitting the fan). Makes me think some players are choosing when they can be bothered carrying out one of the fundamentals of our system. If they are physically not up to it and were already knackered by October/November then fair enough but still worrying, if it is a choice to not press then that's not on.

Agreed the second half against le arse was brilliant.

 

[simon23]

Correct Aguero is currently not right for us he needs to change his way or leave

Runs work rate has gone to another level the year..he has adapted to what Pep wants and improved his work rate....yesterday had nothing to do with Kun...its all on Peps shoulders and people just cant admit this to themselves......certianl players didnt play well but the whole team was set up wrongly and that is down to the manager and no one else.....Kdb was absolutely appalling but some on here seem to have a hard on for wanting Kun gone.....(no idea why)

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Correct Aguero is currently not right for us he needs to change his way or leave

I just don't think Aguero will change. He could walk into most teams in the world playing the way he wants to play so I'm fairly sure that is what he will do.

 

[simon23]

Correct Aguero is currently not right for us he needs to change his way or leave

the sum of those parts also yesterday included KDB who was by far worse, Yaya and Kolarov who for 3 years has been shit consistently and cant do his basic job of defending

so while you may have a narrative against Kun because some people refuse to blame Pep and his appealing (and predictable) set up to certain games you are also ignoring others that just aren't performing regularly

 

[simon23]

Can't believe I'm hearing Aguero isn't suitable material and we can't make anything of him.

Nor would recruitment history encourage me to bet everything on the replacements being a roaring success.N

Hahaha.......exactly this.......

People blame Kun cause they cant blame pep as he is untouchable......

 

[The perfect fumble]

Agreed the second half against le arse was brilliant.

As was the first half against Utd and the second half against Barcelona. How many times have you asked a fellow blue how they think City will do and their reply is "it depends on what City turns up"?