Liverpool Thread 2014/15

[FromPollockToSilva]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Regarding Liverpool's current situation and that of their manager, I sometimes think that teams can become a victim (no pun intended!) of their own success. I appreciate that Liverpool didn't have any "success" in terms of winning trophies last season but my point is that they far exceeded pre-season expectations and came within a whisker of winning the title. That in turn would've pushed the expectations of the club and fans higher with regards to their goals for this season compared to last and despite losing Suarez to Barca, while people associated with the club may have factored in a slight drop-off in form with him leaving they would still have been hoping to put pressure on the teams at the top of the table but that hasn't materialised and they now face a almighty fight just to finish in the top 4.

Now if Liverpool hadn't done as well last season and instead had finished 4th or 5th I don't think Rodgers would be under anywhere near the same kind of pressure this season because expectations for this campaign wouldn't have been as high.

They won the league last year IIRC...

 

[BrianW]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

They thought Basel would be easy, so now they're hugely disappointed. They don't seem to understand that 'istory doesn't help you win games, only players and tactics.

It's a cardinal error to underestimate the opposition, though I must admit, City have done it at times as well. The difference is, perhaps, that most of us don't think we have a divine right to win things.

 

[Loaded Man]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Liverpool’s main ambition this season is 4th.

Infact, realistically, in the current financial climate then Liverpool’s ambitions every season should be to finish 4th – anything else is a bonus and that’s regardless of whether the manager is Brendan Rodgers, Rafa Benitez or Pep Guardiola.

The over achievement last season shouldn’t cloud that fact.

However, that is not to say that this season hasn’t been pretty desperate thus far - the loss of one of the world’s best footballers meant that the team was inevitably going to tail off (not helped by Sturridge’s absence, of course) but certainly shouldn’t have happened to this degree.

Having only hapless journeyman, Ricky Lambert, available as a centre-forward option for must win games (injuries or no injuries) – when most are feeling that a better option would be to go with a 4-6-0 formation or a ‘false nine’ – means that it’s clear to see that something has gone spectacularly wrong with Liverpool’s transfer ‘strategy’.

How much of the this transfer ‘strategy’ is actually down to Brendan Rodgers is subject to much debate however.

The strategy itself (i.e. earmark ‘up and coming’ young players, with potential re-sale value and players who don’t demand high wages) he will have very little control of. In terms of the signing of the actual players themselves, then it’d obviously be alarming if he didn’t have a bit more say, but there are still clear examples of players he didn’t want (e.g. Balotelli) still ending up at the club during the last window.

Some of the players – Moreno, Markovic, Can – were clearly signed as ones for the future (whether they actually are or not is a different question) but the likes of Lovren, Lallana, Balotelli should be making more of a contribution now but, Lallana aside, none look like remotely capable of doing this.

Personally, I still don’t think things are as bad as some seem to believe and, with a couple of tweaks in January (an additional striker brought in, Sturridge back involved, Lambert bin-bagged, Balotelli sticking to twitter and Hello magazine and leaving the togger well alone) then, although tough, I still believe we can challenge for fourth.

A win, however unlikely, at Old Trafford on Sunday would certainly help with that.

A 4-6-0 formation it is hopefully.

Up the Reds.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Chris Bascombe, Liverpool fan, formerly football writer at The Echo and now at The Telegraph, has laid into them big time:
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/11284410/Liverpools-problems-Delusions-of-grandeur-transfer-duds-and-failure-to-fix-clear-flaws-in-the-squad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... squad.html</a>

Liverpool's problems? Delusions of grandeur, transfer duds and failure to fix clear flaws in the squad

Those who want Brendan Rodgers out are deluding themselves if they think it will change anything under the current set-up, writes Chris Bascombe

Liverpool shoved their way back into Europe’s VIP tent as if it was their entitlement last August. Last night they were sheepishly collecting their coat and being escorted from the premises, ending the most shambolic and embarrassing series of European Cup performances in the club’s history.

It was during the Champions League draw they prematurely reclaimed their status as European royalty, chief executive Ian Ayre’s crass suggestion ‘this is our competition’ succeeding only in making the Merseyside club sound like they’d wasted no time guzzling Uefa champagne.

Liverpool never look or sound more insecure than when they start telling everyone how marvellous they are; there is nothing more small-time in football than confirmation of your own sense of greatness.

“At Liverpool we do not talk, we just win,” was the mantra of the club’s universally respected ex-chairman, Sir John Smith - others, who viewed the club with awe, bequeathed the tributes while Liverpool silently and humbly did everything right.

Indeed, walk around Anfield or Melwood and there are quotes from luminaries such as Johan Cruyff decorating the wall. Most pre-date the last 20 years, of course, but Liverpool employees often think they absorb the eminence of others just by touching the hem of history.

Only when it suits them, mind.

There is plenty of encouragement to drop Liverpool’s name alongside the grandees of Europe such as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich when discussing heritage, status, commercial potential and global support.

Judge what happened in these six group games in relation to those clubs, however, and there will be less inclination to embrace the comparison.

It is worth considering how board members at The Nou Camp, Bernabeu or Allianz Arena would be reacting this morning if their side had won a meagre five points from 18 from a Champions League group including the Swiss and Bulgarian champions.

Would Florentino Perez be privately briefing the Spanish media mouthpiece Marca that while it was deeply disappointing, it was important to retain a sense of perspective?

Would we be hearing Barcelona chief Josep Maria Bartomeu propose a persuasive argument that although his club spent £120 million on new players during the summer, it was inevitable they would need time to gel?

Would Franz Beckenbauer seek to console Bayern supporters by suggesting they need not worry about an injection of new blood in the January transfer window, because he retained the absolute faith that everyone was doing a marvellous job and it was such a shame one key player derailed everything by leaving in July?

In no particular order, here is the assorted list of official explanations for Liverpool’s turgid performances this season.

1. Luis Suarez left.

2. Daniel Sturridge is injured.

3. Liverpool did everything possible to sign Alexis Sanchez but he would not come.

4. There was no other striker available, so they had to buy Mario Balotelli.

5. No-one questioned the wisdom of signing the eight summer recruits at the time, every deal is risky, and there are not too many clubs in the Premier League who had a good summer in transfer market.

Whether you sympathise with these views or are appalled by a litany of excuses, what is most disturbing is the sense that as a club Liverpool do not believe they could have done much more; as if they have been undermined by a series of unfortunate events.

Aside from the fact there were plentiful warnings about the lack of a Suarez replacement, the notion all eight deals should have been questioned by fans (or journalists) who were otherwise engaged watching the Premier League last season is preposterous (and irrelevant).

The accountability for failing to fix the flaws in the squad that were evident for two years lies solely with those paid handsomely to remedy it – and at the risk of repetition that is not a one man job.

It would be reassuring to think there will be a sense of fury in the post-match debrief in the Anfield bunker that will strip the walls, but the impression given is those responsible are telling themselves circumstances made it unavoidable. If that is the case, it is even more disconcerting for Liverpool fans than the sight of Martin Skrtel employed as an emergency centre-forward – surely the most damning indictment of the wretched recruitment of the club.

Liverpool went into the game with Basel with a goalkeeper who doesn't know whether to kick the ball or exorcise it; centre-halves who you expect to be bullied by AFC Wimbledon next month; midfielders whose goals and assist record must be evident to the statistical wizards who are so revered by John W. Henry; and a 32-year-old striker who ran out of gas 72 hours before kick-off.

Liverpool appear to have lost the memo that makes it clear football is about players. You can offer countless speeches about strategy and appoint a manager with a philosophy that would make Plato blush, but if you buy pap you end up with last night.

That is why those who want Brendan Rodgers out as a result of Liverpool’s performances this season are deluding themselves if they think it will change anything under the current set-up.

Fenway Sports Group would interview another series of idealistic managers delivered fresh from the Uefa pro-licence course, each one no doubt adept at arranging training sessions and communicating his ideas. He’d still be at the mercy of the quality of Liverpool’s recruitment.

The Anfield transfer committee – or more specifically how they operate - is a familiar gripe on these pages and it is not used to absolve Rodgers, merely to point out he is partially rather than wholly responsible.

You have to look beyond him because it is a matter of public record he is one of many architects of this squad and not the traditional project manager. For what it is worth I firmly agree with the idea of a consensual approach to transfers in the same way I would endorse the principle of cabinet government. Rather like the current occupants of Downing Street, however, I also believe their appalling track record and failure to impose a successful policy means they should not have safe seats.

The Anfield committee was formed with good intentions; too many Liverpool deals since the 90s were filtered through the same agents; players often seemed to be preferred because of who they were represented by rather than whether they were good enough; managers assumed far too much power, made too many mistakes and spent too much time moaning about lack of resources when they’d been given plenty.

Rather than add checks and balances, however, Liverpool’s new approach has made what was already a miserable transfer track record since their last title even worse. Liverpool’s squad is not good enough and no amount of spin; no amount of dossiers detailing why those signed were the correct choices at the time; and no amount of blind faith mediocre players will come good with the right coaching will repair the damage of those chastening Champions League performances. In 540 minutes, Liverpool only looked like they might stay in the competition during the last 10.

FSG know what Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich would do in these circumstances and the question is whether they are prepared to confront that reality or are deferring to those they have trusted to make the last 16 signings of which only two (possibly now reduced to one) have increased their value.

The grandees of Europe would hold those at fault accountable for a humiliating and demeaning failure.

When the effect of spending £120 million is the creation of a team so painful to watch every seat in Anfield's new Main Stand may need to be equipped with a sofa to hide behind, it is not tolerated. Not at big clubs. Not for those who expect permanent residency in the VIP tent.

 

[mrbelfry]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

They look like a different team compared to last season. I've not seen them much this year but they do seem bereft of an identity at the moment. Rodgers seems like a momentum manager. When he gets momentum going things seem to do well but it is easy to derail - Suarez leaving and Sturridge's injury seems to have done that. Once momentum is lost it is really hard to work up again (takes a talent like Suarez to do it). They remind me a little of us when we were so dependant on Tevez.

 

[the blue panther]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

That's a very hard hitting indictment of Liverpool.
What a pity that it looks like they are far worse than United, and I really can't see anything other than a United win in the ''losers' derby'' this weekend.

 

[waspish]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

When they had a player of Saurez capabilities it makes other players raise there game and gives them confidence knowing they can beat anyone with Saurez in there team

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

That's a very hard hitting indictment of Liverpool.
What a pity that it looks like they are far worse than United, and I really can't see anything other than a United win in the ''losers' derby'' this weekend.

I may be reading too much into it but this part seems to be a dig at Benitez and a hint that maybe he had some inducement to use certain agents.

The Anfield committee was formed with good intentions; too many Liverpool deals since the 90s were filtered through the same agents; players often seemed to be preferred because of who they were represented by rather than whether they were good enough; managers assumed far too much power, made too many mistakes and spent too much time moaning about lack of resources when they’d been given plenty.

 

[M18CTID]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Regarding Liverpool's current situation and that of their manager, I sometimes think that teams can become a victim (no pun intended!) of their own success. I appreciate that Liverpool didn't have any "success" in terms of winning trophies last season but my point is that they far exceeded pre-season expectations and came within a whisker of winning the title. That in turn would've pushed the expectations of the club and fans higher with regards to their goals for this season compared to last and despite losing Suarez to Barca, while people associated with the club may have factored in a slight drop-off in form with him leaving they would still have been hoping to put pressure on the teams at the top of the table but that hasn't materialised and they now face a almighty fight just to finish in the top 4.

Now if Liverpool hadn't done as well last season and instead had finished 4th or 5th I don't think Rodgers would be under anywhere near the same kind of pressure this season because expectations for this campaign wouldn't have been as high.

No arguing with that, unfortunately (for Liverpool) when your manager is a bellend of the highest order and milks every last drop of credit from the 'success' the team enjoyed last season, when it goes tits up the year after everyone jumps on his back. That is the culture of that football club, they are stuck in a 1980's time warp and are struggling to break out of it. In Rodgers they have the perfect fit, he buys into all their excesses, from his cliche ridden rhetoric to last years permanent armband, he shares their pain and he allowed them to dream but now the reality of coping with CL and other cup competitions has hit them and it's hit them hard. Compare his demeanour to that of Manuel Pellegrini and you realise how lucky we are.

I totally agree mate - I saw a great comment a while back which I think was lifted from an Irish newspaper and went something along the lines of "The way Brendan Rodgers talks about Liverpool, you'd think he was the Anfield stadium tour guide". I don't think that could've been any more apt - granted, any manager will big up the club they're currently at but Rodgers takes it way too far for me, especially as he's only been involved with the club for just over 2 years. His quotes are cringeworthy to say the least but no doubt the Oslo Ultras lap them up.

 

[moomba]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Rodgers win % at the Red Lion - 51.7%
Moyes win % at the Dog and Duck - 51.9%