Liverpool Thread - 2022/23

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I go back to my point. The Liverpool end was overcrowded, as was visible on TV. Many legitimate fans with valid tickets were locked out and caught in a crush. (A crush implies a large number of people, not just a handful.)

How is this entirely UEFA's fault? Do those fans who jibbed in, or used bogus tickets, have no agency at all?

This is a good example of infantilism at work. It effectively argues that grown men and women are helpless, like tiny children, and therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions. It is like saying that if I buy a knife, go into Manchester, and stab someone through the heart, it is the fault of Metrolink for conveying me or the fault of the Police for not stopping me.

It's too absurd to talk about!
 
BrianW said:
I go back to my point. The Liverpool end was overcrowded, as was visible on TV. Many legitimate fans with valid tickets were locked out and caught in a crush. (A crush implies a large number of people, not just a handful.)

How is this entirely UEFA's fault? Do those fans who jibbed in, or used bogus tickets, have no agency at all?

This is a good example of infantilism at work. It effectively argues that grown men and women are helpless, like tiny children, and therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions. It is like saying that if I buy a knife, go into Manchester, and stab someone through the heart, it is the fault of Metrolink for conveying me or the fault of the Police for not stopping me.

It's too absurd to talk about!
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It is absurd, you are correct.
I believe that the wayward fans do bear a lot of the blame, no matter what the authorities say.
In fact, by assuming responsibility for the actions of those fans, the authorities have actually condoned criminal activity and weakened the rule of law.
A line has been crossed here, make no mistake about that, and who knows where we are now headed?
 
BrianW said:
I go back to my point. The Liverpool end was overcrowded, as was visible on TV. Many legitimate fans with valid tickets were locked out and caught in a crush. (A crush implies a large number of people, not just a handful.)

How is this entirely UEFA's fault? Do those fans who jibbed in, or used bogus tickets, have no agency at all?

This is a good example of infantilism at work. It effectively argues that grown men and women are helpless, like tiny children, and therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions. It is like saying that if I buy a knife, go into Manchester, and stab someone through the heart, it is the fault of Metrolink for conveying me or the fault of the Police for not stopping me.

It's too absurd to talk about!
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The reason UEFA are at fault is that they are supposed to assess the risks and then put in place a plan which is safe for supporters turning up with genuine tickets for the match.

If they were aware that there were likely to be a lot of fake tickets (and I believe Merseyside police warned them), then they have a responsibility to the other fans to make sure they can deal with that effectively.

The coverage in the Guardian has been particularly red-tinted, but there was a good interactive showing the whole route for fans to the stadium. They were essentially forced into very long bottle necks (and these couldn't be seen by the people arriving so they didn't realise that there was a problem ahead), and at these points they tried to check tickets. Even without fake tickets it looked like a recipe for disaster, but as soon as tickets start getting rejected, the whole thing collapses. There is already a crush behind, so nowhere for the fan whose ticket has been rejected to go (and bear in mind they could have a genuine ticket but a fake copy had been scanned), and given that it's a massive bottle neck, there is constant pressure building up behind.

No-one is saying that UEFA didn't look after the fans trying to jib in, they're saying that they put the fans who had spent a lot of money on genuine tickets at risk
 
manimanc said:
Real Madrid have been a bit on n off lately. Trailing Barca in the league by 11 points with a game in hand.
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Liverpool haven't been much better to be honest and despite last night's cup win they still don't look they are "back"
 
bluenova said:
The reason UEFA are at fault is that they are supposed to assess the risks and then put in place a plan which is safe for supporters turning up with genuine tickets for the match.

If they were aware that there were likely to be a lot of fake tickets (and I believe Merseyside police warned them), then they have a responsibility to the other fans to make sure they can deal with that effectively.

The coverage in the Guardian has been particularly red-tinted, but there was a good interactive showing the whole route for fans to the stadium. They were essentially forced into very long bottle necks (and these couldn't be seen by the people arriving so they didn't realise that there was a problem ahead), and at these points they tried to check tickets. Even without fake tickets it looked like a recipe for disaster, but as soon as tickets start getting rejected, the whole thing collapses. There is already a crush behind, so nowhere for the fan whose ticket has been rejected to go (and bear in mind they could have a genuine ticket but a fake copy had been scanned), and given that it's a massive bottle neck, there is constant pressure building up behind.

No-one is saying that UEFA didn't look after the fans trying to jib in, they're saying that they put the fans who had spent a lot of money on genuine tickets at risk
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The point is if there weren’t any dippers there with fake tickets there wouldn’t have been an issue just like with the Madrid fans. Actions have consequences.
 
plattlanebenches said:
The point is if there weren’t any dippers there with fake tickets there wouldn’t have been an issue just like with the Madrid fans. Actions have consequences.
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That's simply not true - if you look at the route to the stadium it was completely different at the Liverpool end and was always going to be a total disaster. It was a really long route, with lots of bottle necks and pinch points.

What if City get to a Champions League final and you have a ticket, but you ended up being crushed in a queue for hours on end, then can't get in because some fucker has used a fake version of your ticket?

Of course the fucker with the fake ticket is responsible. But if UEFA knew there were likely to be fakes, and not only didn't plan to deal with them, but set up a system which encouraged the crush, would YOU feel pissed off? Sure you'd be angry about the idiot trying to jib in, but that's what idiots do. UEFA on the other hand are supposed to think about these things and do their very best to ensure you're safe and can get in to the ground with your legit ticket.
 
Father Paul said:
Thankfully nobody died and thankfully Liverpool lost the match. Yes the dippers are a feral mob but on this occasion UEFA appear to have been the main culprits. If you feel you owe no apology then so be it.
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So it was UEFA, who printed and distributed the fake tickets, and encouraged Littlewoods fans to travel to Paris without a valid means of entry to the stadium?
 
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