Liverpool thread

[stony]

They're only just building an extension on their stadium which will still leave them 20 odd thousand shy of the rags capacity. That's 20 odd thousand shy of a club that is trailing in the wake of it's nearest neighbour.
I can't understand why the dipper got so defensive when someone mentioned the infrastructure. The dippers are only just starting to compete with clubs we are leaving behind. Our investment into the academy is unprecedented and while the eyes of the biggest clubs in the world are busy watching how the investment into the CFG and it's attempts to build a worldwide brand pans out, Liverpool are too busy shouting "FIVE TIMES" to notice that the modern world of football is passing them by.

 

[cyprustavern]

Who let the dipper in just for everyone to take the piss? Seriously, isn't it time we moved the Liverpool thread to off topic? Let's face it, their idea of success this season would be finishing fourth and sterling getting injured.



what he said...one good thing....they are preferable to the dirty everton cunts

 

[IH8MUFC]

They've spent a lot over the years, but never enough in one go to secure the PL.
It's the same issue Arsenal have had in recent years. Half arsed attempts at it.

Of course, they will argue that it's the advent of Chelsea and more latterly City that have put 'buying the title' beyond them, but that then suggests that actually there is nothing 'special' about clubs, and they can't win the league on sheer inspiration alone.

There's no denying they've been great in the past. But so have Ajax and Benfica. Things change, and nobody's queuing up to join Ajax these days, despite having some great European and domestic success.

For a 20 year old, Man City have been in the top 2 of the PL for the last 1/4 of their life. When you look at things in that way, you can understand why players aren't as attracted to Liverpool as they once were.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking about our new left winger mate?

 

[cyprustavern]

they have bought all their success ...name me a club that hasnt?

 

[M18CTID]

They're only just building an extension on their stadium which will still leave them 20 odd thousand shy of the rags capacity. That's 20 odd thousand shy of a club that is trailing in the wake of it's nearest neighbour.
I can't understand why the dipper got so defensive when someone mentioned the infrastructure. The dippers are only just starting to compete with clubs we are leaving behind. Our investment into the academy is unprecedented and while the eyes of the biggest clubs in the world are busy watching how the investment into the CFG and it's attempts to build a worldwide brand pans out, Liverpool are too busy shouting "FIVE TIMES" to notice that the modern world of football is passing them by.

I'm not going to go all in and take the piss out of Liverpool like some posters have done but your first paragraph sums it up for me. I've said in the past that I feel Liverpool missed a huge trick in the early 1990's by not expanding Anfield there and then. They were just at the end of their successful era at that point but they, along with United, were so far ahead of the rest in terms of level of support that they should've had the foresight to increase the capacity of their ground. There was talk of it being done of course - even back then - but here we are nearly a quarter of a century later and they're only just getting round to it. I know there have been problems associated with it but for it to drag on this long is astonishing - seriously, what the hell have they been doing the past 20-odd years? United stole a huge march on them by getting on with it and also milking their global support base into the bargain (something Liverpool were very slow to pick up on). Not only that, when both phases of this expansion is finally complete it is likely to only be the 5th biggest in the country - assuming our North Stand expansion goes ahead, as seems likely, and also behind Tottenham's new stadium capacity. It's possible that it may get relegated to 6th if and when Chelsea's expansion plans are completed, plus it will only be a few thousand higher than West Ham's. When you factor in London weighting with regards to ticket prices and hospitality costs, Chelsea, Spurs, and even West Ham may well generate more cash from match day takings.

 

[Matty]

Expansion of Anfield is happening because the preferred option, a brand new, state of the art stadium, with vastly increased capacity, hi-tech facilities, and hugely improved corporate facilities, is beyond both the financial means, or more accurately the financial desire of their owners. If they were truly committed to making Liverpool a title challenging side, a relevance in the Premier League, then they'd be organising a way to finance the building of a new stadium. Anfield dates back over 130 years, and it's showing it's age. The ability to expand is restricted by the proximity of housing, the ability to upgrade facilities is also restricted. The expansion will increase capacity to 53,000, with a further expansion planned which is capable of increasing this further to approx. 58,000. Fairly sizeable but still well behind Old Trafford, and behind where the Etihad could get to once the North Stand has had the extra tier added. Work should be completed by next summer. FSG's insistence that the funding for this is in the form of a loan, which will be paid back in instalments over the next few seasons will hamper Liverpool reaping the advantages of this expansion for several years to come, and also speaks to the ambition of FSG. They aren't investing in the stadium, they're getting their money back, it's going to be Liverpool FC that's paying for it, not their owners.

The amount of money flowing around football these days is unprecedented, and the Premier League is at the top of the pile. The TV deal means all Premier League sides have a huge sum of money to spend, so that can't really be used by Liverpool fans to justify their opinion that Liverpool can continue to class themselves as being ahead of the curve when it comes to ability to recruit top players. Their fanbase is huge, and that brings with it commercial opportunities that other clubs can't take advantage of, however the gap is being closed down considerably and you'd have to argue that, commercially, there's no reason to suspect Liverpool will have any advantage at all over Chelsea, City, United or Arsenal going forward.

Then you have the dreaded word, history. You simply can't deny that, historically Liverpool have been hugely successful. 19 top flight titles, 5 European Cups, a host of domestic cups, it's a hugely impressive tally. However, at some stage history become just that, historical, interesting to read about, but consigned to the annals of time, not really relevant to the current situation. That time has arrived for Liverpool. They've won a Champion's League, although that was 10 years ago now. And they've had some cup success also, FA Cup, League Cup, and UEFA Cup, but the league title has eluded them since 1990. For reference, there are people who won the title that season for Liverpool who are now in their 60's, that's how long ago it was! Liverpool fans, former Liverpool players, and the current Liverpool hierarchy continue to pontificate, and bluster, about Liverpool being a special club, one of the Worlds biggest and best, and that playing there is the dream of many footballers. It's a nice story, and 20 years ago it was very much the case, it's not such an accurate reflection of reality though these days. The current crop of professional footballers will simply have no recollection of Liverpool as a title winning side, in that regard they'll see them as being on a par with other decent Premier League sides. Are they really that much more attractive a prospect than Tottenham for example? They've each got the same chance of winning the title, pretty much none, and they've both got the same chance of making the top 4 and the Champion's League, a very distant outside chance.

Players want to win, at least the top end ones who can make a difference, and Liverpool no longer offer them that opportunity, and haven't for a while now. If you can't offer success you've got to offer something else to attract top players. FSG won't pay extortionate wages, so there's not that option. That leaves club prestige, and as I've already said, Liverpool's is becoming tarnished by the passing of time. Simply put, there's no longer a reason for elite level players to chose Liverpool, and whilst that's the case Liverpool will remain a Premier League irrelevance. FSG can address this by paying more than other clubs are willing to and attracting players that way, it's what City did after ADUG took over, when we couldn't offer another reason to join us. However FSG simply don't look willing to go down that route.

Whilst the status quo remains Liverpool will continually be on the outside of the Premier League's top sides looking in enviously and reminiscing about the good old days when they won top level trophies.

 

[daveyboybluemoon]

Expansion of Anfield is happening because the preferred option, a brand new, state of the art stadium, with vastly increased capacity, hi-tech facilities, and hugely improved corporate facilities, is beyond both the financial means, or more accurately the financial desire of their owners. If they were truly committed to making Liverpool a title challenging side, a relevance in the Premier League, then they'd be organising a way to finance the building of a new stadium. Anfield dates back over 130 years, and it's showing it's age. The ability to expand is restricted by the proximity of housing, the ability to upgrade facilities is also restricted. The expansion will increase capacity to 53,000, with a further expansion planned which is capable of increasing this further to approx. 58,000. Fairly sizeable but still well behind Old Trafford, and behind where the Etihad could get to once the North Stand has had the extra tier added. Work should be completed by next summer. FSG's insistence that the funding for this is in the form of a loan, which will be paid back in instalments over the next few seasons will hamper Liverpool reaping the advantages of this expansion for several years to come, and also speaks to the ambition of FSG. They aren't investing in the stadium, they're getting their money back, it's going to be Liverpool FC that's paying for it, not their owners.

The amount of money flowing around football these days is unprecedented, and the Premier League is at the top of the pile. The TV deal means all Premier League sides have a huge sum of money to spend, so that can't really be used by Liverpool fans to justify their opinion that Liverpool can continue to class themselves as being ahead of the curve when it comes to ability to recruit top players. Their fanbase is huge, and that brings with it commercial opportunities that other clubs can't take advantage of, however the gap is being closed down considerably and you'd have to argue that, commercially, there's no reason to suspect Liverpool will have any advantage at all over Chelsea, City, United or Arsenal going forward.

Then you have the dreaded word, history. You simply can't deny that, historically Liverpool have been hugely successful. 19 top flight titles, 5 European Cups, a host of domestic cups, it's a hugely impressive tally. However, at some stage history become just that, historical, interesting to read about, but consigned to the annals of time, not really relevant to the current situation. That time has arrived for Liverpool. They've won a Champion's League, although that was 10 years ago now. And they've had some cup success also, FA Cup, League Cup, and UEFA Cup, but the league title has eluded them since 1990. For reference, there are people who won the title that season for Liverpool who are now in their 60's, that's how long ago it was! Liverpool fans, former Liverpool players, and the current Liverpool hierarchy continue to pontificate, and bluster, about Liverpool being a special club, one of the Worlds biggest and best, and that playing there is the dream of many footballers. It's a nice story, and 20 years ago it was very much the case, it's not such an accurate reflection of reality though these days. The current crop of professional footballers will simply have no recollection of Liverpool as a title winning side, in that regard they'll see them as being on a par with other decent Premier League sides. Are they really that much more attractive a prospect than Tottenham for example? They've each got the same chance of winning the title, pretty much none, and they've both got the same chance of making the top 4 and the Champion's League, a very distant outside chance.

Players want to win, at least the top end ones who can make a difference, and Liverpool no longer offer them that opportunity, and haven't for a while now. If you can't offer success you've got to offer something else to attract top players. FSG won't pay extortionate wages, so there's not that option. That leaves club prestige, and as I've already said, Liverpool's is becoming tarnished by the passing of time. Simply put, there's no longer a reason for elite level players to chose Liverpool, and whilst that's the case Liverpool will remain a Premier League irrelevance. FSG can address this by paying more than other clubs are willing to and attracting players that way, it's what City did after ADUG took over, when we couldn't offer another reason to join us. However FSG simply don't look willing to go down that route.

Whilst the status quo remains Liverpool will continually be on the outside of the Premier League's top sides looking in enviously and reminiscing about the good old days when they won top level trophies.

That hits the nails firmly on the head.....Great post!

 

[Loaded Man]

Tends to bore the fuck out of me when people bang on and on about the commercial side of things on football forums, to be honest.

Amazing to what extent the game and the demographic of football fans has changed in recent years.

Fans banging on about ‘Net spend’, bragging rights over the number of fans who’ve attended friendly games, a clamour to appeal to as many ‘new’ fans as possible in Timbuc-fucking-too for fans of clubs that were historically for people from the cities from which they hailed, people wanking themselves stupid over clubs being able to pay their players 200k+ a week in wages, ‘our match day revenue is bigger than yours’ (never mind that we’re paying 50 quid plus for the privilege in a lot of cases!), ‘turnover’…….yeah, football’s big business these days but, as a fan at least, it all strikes me as a bit grim. Leave that stuff to the business people.

That all said, there’s a shit load Liverpool could do better both on and off the pitch currently– something most Liverpool fans are only too acutely aware of. Regarding the stadium, demand for tickets has significantly outweighed supply for upwards of 20 years – 44000 is far too small and even with the new increased capacity then Anfield will still be too small.

On the togger side of things, then Liverpool are still competitive (ish anway) around the top four but not really any more than that currently – whether that ultimately makes us ‘irrelevant’ is not really for me to say (and my view on it would be pretty fucking biased anyway). Others have made their views on this clear though – what I would say as an outsider looking in then it’s mad just how much some City fans have changed in recent years however.

From what I’ve seen so far then we’ll probably ultimately struggle to break into the top four with the current team. Then again, it’s still early days and we’ve looked more solid so far this season if nothing else. Benteke and the two full-backs also already look like decent buys to me – albeit Gomez is still very much in the ‘watch this space’ category.

It may ultimately boil down to how good Firmino turns out to be, whether we can get and keep Sturridge fit for any length of time and whether the defence can gain some cohesion for a large part of the season, as to whether we do make that top four.

Given we effectively played the whole of last season without a centre forward worthy of the name and finished 6th then I’d like to think there should be at least some improvements this year though.

That said, I can’t see anything other than a defeat at Arsenal on Monday night –particularly if Henderson’s not fit - but we’ll see.

Up the Reds!

 

[Matty]

Tends to bore the fuck out of me when people bang on and on about the commercial side of things on football forums, to be honest.

Amazing to what extent the game and the demographic of football fans has changed in recent years.

Fans banging on about ‘Net spend’, bragging rights over the number of fans who’ve attended friendly games, a clamour to appeal to as many ‘new’ fans as possible in Timbuc-fucking-too for fans of clubs that were historically for people from the cities from which they hailed, people wanking themselves stupid over clubs being able to pay their players 200k+ a week in wages, ‘our match day revenue is bigger than yours’ (never mind that we’re paying 50 quid plus for the privilege in a lot of cases!), ‘turnover’…….yeah, football’s big business these days but, as a fan at least, it all strikes me as a bit grim. Leave that stuff to the business people.

That all said, there’s a shit load Liverpool could do better both on and off the pitch currently– something most Liverpool fans are only too acutely aware of. Regarding the stadium, demand for tickets has significantly outweighed supply for upwards of 20 years – 44000 is far too small and even with the new increased capacity then Anfield will still be too small.

On the togger side of things, then Liverpool are still competitive (ish anway) around the top four but not really any more than that currently – whether that ultimately makes us ‘irrelevant’ is not really for me to say (and my view on it would be pretty fucking biased anyway). Others have made their views on this clear though – what I would say as an outsider looking in then it’s mad just how much some City fans have changed in recent years however.

From what I’ve seen so far then we’ll probably ultimately struggle to break into the top four with the current team. Then again, it’s still early days and we’ve looked more solid so far this season if nothing else. Benteke and the two full-backs also already look like decent buys to me – albeit Gomez is still very much in the ‘watch this space’ category.

It may ultimately boil down to how good Firmino turns out to be, whether we can get and keep Sturridge fit for any length of time and whether the defence can gain some cohesion for a large part of the season, as to whether we do make that top four.

Given we effectively played the whole of last season without a centre forward worthy of the name and finished 6th then I’d like to think there should be at least some improvements this year though.

That said, I can’t see anything other than a defeat at Arsenal on Monday night –particularly if Henderson’s not fit - but we’ll see.

Up the Reds!

No-one really cares about net spend, fanbase, revenue streams, corporate links etc, what they care about is what these things mean for the on the field activities. Money has never been as important within football than at present, so a clubs ability to generate it is paramount when it comes to putting a competitive side out on the pitch. The point being made about Liverpool is that they have relied for too long on being "the big fish" and haven't spent enough time and effort trying to develop their revenue making ability. There's been a degree of arrogance that has seen them believing, as they're a big team, that they will always be at the top table. Recent changes at clubs such as City and Chelsea, combined with the Premier League becoming a financial monster, has meant that Liverpool's historical advantage in terms of it's financial clout has been greatly diminished. This needs to be remedied before they can, realistically, secure a regular top 4 spot, yet alone become title challengers. FSG simply don't look like the right owners to do this. The extension is basically a poor mans attempt at increasing match day money, certainly when you consider the fact the funds to pay for it are being loaned rather than invested in the club. It's the, relatively, cheap and cheerful solution to the problem, and it's more akin to a band-aid rather than the major surgery that is really required.

The same can be said for the investment in squad players. Liverpool, in recent seasons, have sold 3 players for staggering amounts, Torres, Suarez and Sterling. The funds, in each case, haven't been invested in a way which has lead to success. The current example, using the Sterling money to add Benteke, Firmino, Clyne and Gomez (along with some additional funding) is another attempt at spreading the funds more thinly, when targeting legitimate World stars was needed. Look at City, Chelsea, United and Arsenal. They've added top quality players to their squads in recent seasons, Liverpool's additions have been, at least, a level below that, if not more than one. That's because FSG want to limit their liability. If you buy 4 players for £50m, and 1 or 2 don't pan out, then you've still got 2 that have, and you've probably only "lost" £15m-£20m, if you spend £50m on 1 top quality player, and it doesn't work out, you've lost the lot (minus the reduced fee that can be recouped through his sale). FSG seem unwilling to gamble in that way, yet it's only by taking those kinds of risks that you can rise to challenge the top sides.

 

[Bozzie]

"What I would say as an outsider looking in then it's mad just how much some City fans have changed in recent years however"

Unfortunately the same can't be said about Liverpool fans - they haven't changed one bit, they were a set of arrogant twats the first time I went to Anfield in 1974 and they're still a set of arrogant twats 40 years later.