Marvin said:No I know. It just crossed my mind, because he could be out of work soon, and if Utd really go into meltdown, there wont be that many experienced successful managers available mid-seasonPam said:
In a word, no.
wouldn't work under the gpc.TGR said:Marvin said:No I know. It just crossed my mind, because he could be out of work soon, and if Utd really go into meltdown, there wont be that many experienced successful managers available mid-seasonPam said:In a word, no.
Never say never as never is a very long time...
It is a possibility. not one I would like to see but from the
conversations I have had with rag supporters they genuinely feared
Mancini. For this reason they respect him.
It would also put Jose's nose out place as Mancini would without doubt become the
SKY TV / talkSHITE poster boy.
Bloody hell!
The 4-0 win against Newcastle came before the loss at Cardiff, the unconvincing win against Hull and the lucky draw against Stoke so did the 'disarray' start before or after Newcastle? I fully agree with you the ManUre match was over after an hour, but this also coincided with Moyes going with a 5-man midfield which swung the pendulum in their direction, albeit too late to effect the final result.Marvin said:Hull was one of our first games under Pellegrini when we were in some disarray, and the Utd game was over after an hour. Bayern would destroy anyone. Most teams would get thrashed and pulled apart whether they played 2 or 1 up front, and when you're playing at home, the onus is there to win the game. Attacking them is how you learn.Dribble said:I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.Marvin said:We have played the best football I have seen at home, and there's no reason why we can't do it away from home,
We fell behind Arsenal in September, then we lost Kompany then Silva. But we have held the gap to 6 points for 2 months, and now they are back I expect us to start to close it.
I know all teams have to handle injuries, but it depends on who is injured. Take Rooney out of Utd and look at the consequences
The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.
Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.
The solution isn't rocket science........
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
You are constructing something that does not exist and then trying to knock it down.
-- Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 am --
Just had a look at the Turkish League table
Galatasaray are 6th, 12 points behind Fenerbahce but with 1 game in hand.
I hope they qualify against Juve, but if they do go out, Mancini could find himself in trouble.
Could you imagine him at Old Trafford ;-)
Bayern's super striker dropped into midfield at The Etihad in a tactical masterstroke and could not help but notice Aguero and Dzeko playing the part of bystanders on the halfway line. Muller said:
"Against City, we wanted to gain superiority in midfield. City had two attackers who - and I exaggerate a bit - sat in their deckchairs on the halfway line when we were in possession. No attacker is allowed to do that at Bayern or in the Germany team."
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
you show me the extra midfielders we would need to introduce this system and I'll pm you with the details as long as you don't tell everyone ;)Dribble said:The 4-0 win against Newcastle came before the loss at Cardiff, the unconvincing win against Hull and the lucky draw against Stoke so did the 'disarray' start before or after Newcastle? I fully agree with you the ManUre match was over after an hour, but this also coincided with Moyes going with a 5-man midfield which swung the pendulum in their direction, albeit too late to effect the final result.Marvin said:Hull was one of our first games under Pellegrini when we were in some disarray, and the Utd game was over after an hour. Bayern would destroy anyone. Most teams would get thrashed and pulled apart whether they played 2 or 1 up front, and when you're playing at home, the onus is there to win the game. Attacking them is how you learn.Dribble said:I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.
The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.
Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.
The solution isn't rocket science........
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
You are constructing something that does not exist and then trying to knock it down.
-- Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 am --
Just had a look at the Turkish League table
Galatasaray are 6th, 12 points behind Fenerbahce but with 1 game in hand.
I hope they qualify against Juve, but if they do go out, Mancini could find himself in trouble.
Could you imagine him at Old Trafford ;-)
I don't agree that Bayern would 'thrash' most teams, but I would agree that they would beat most teams because they are that good. The thrashings come about when teams are set up wrong against Bayern's rapid high-pressure tactics. Taking this into consideration, why would anyone set a team up with a suicidal 4-4-2 formation against IMHO the best club team in the world?
Guardiola showed us tactical respect by not even deploying a striker, what tactical respect did we show Bayern? All the fans at the stadium were crying out for us to shore up the midfield, the fans at home were thinking the same. I watched the match again a few days later and Gary Neville & Martin Tyler were saying what we were doing was suicidal and were questioning why MP wasn't reacting to the mauling we were getting. But react he did..... after 75 minutes when the battering was complete we finally changed our shape, pulled a goal back and started to give Bayern something to think about.
Bayern enjoyed 66% overall possession after 93 minutes, but I recall reading somewhere that their possession was as high as 75% after 75 minutes! I'm not saying that Bayern wouldn't have beaten us, but the battering we suffered needn't have happened and I'm not the only person who thinks this. And yes we did learn...... we learned that at the highest level of football tactical nous matters.
Any system can be flexible as you pointed out, but have you considered the 'flexibility' we showed against Bayern was down to the fact we were being pulled all over the place because of Bayern's superior tactics and set-up? Please read Thomas Muller's recent quote about our performance:
Bayern's super striker dropped into midfield at The Etihad in a tactical masterstroke and could not help but notice Aguero and Dzeko playing the part of bystanders on the halfway line. Muller said:
"Against City, we wanted to gain superiority in midfield. City had two attackers who - and I exaggerate a bit - sat in their deckchairs on the halfway line when we were in possession. No attacker is allowed to do that at Bayern or in the Germany team."
Opposed to Muller's comments you stated:
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
In short Bayern set themselves up to counter our formation and soundly battered us, we in response used an antiquated 4-4-2 system and in doing so, got what was coming......
I respect how you see that night and our general performances this season, I just see it different that's all. I have confidence that MP will sort these foibles out before too long, but TBH after his comments at the weekend that he wasn't for turning, I'm starting to get a tad worried that what we're seeing is what we're going to get and I for one am seriously worried if that is to be the case.
Finally, can anyone please tell me where our 'holistic from under 6's to the 1st team 4-3-3' formation has gone?
We've been playing a version of 4-3-3 for the last 3 years as a 4-2-3-1 so the personnel required are right under our noses.aguero93:20 said:you show me the extra midfielders we would need to introduce this system and I'll pm you with the details as long as you don't tell everyone ;)Dribble said:The 4-0 win against Newcastle came before the loss at Cardiff, the unconvincing win against Hull and the lucky draw against Stoke so did the 'disarray' start before or after Newcastle? I fully agree with you the ManUre match was over after an hour, but this also coincided with Moyes going with a 5-man midfield which swung the pendulum in their direction, albeit too late to effect the final result.Marvin said:Hull was one of our first games under Pellegrini when we were in some disarray, and the Utd game was over after an hour. Bayern would destroy anyone. Most teams would get thrashed and pulled apart whether they played 2 or 1 up front, and when you're playing at home, the onus is there to win the game. Attacking them is how you learn.
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
You are constructing something that does not exist and then trying to knock it down.
-- Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 am --
Just had a look at the Turkish League table
Galatasaray are 6th, 12 points behind Fenerbahce but with 1 game in hand.
I hope they qualify against Juve, but if they do go out, Mancini could find himself in trouble.
Could you imagine him at Old Trafford ;-)
I don't agree that Bayern would 'thrash' most teams, but I would agree that they would beat most teams because they are that good. The thrashings come about when teams are set up wrong against Bayern's rapid high-pressure tactics. Taking this into consideration, why would anyone set a team up with a suicidal 4-4-2 formation against IMHO the best club team in the world?
Guardiola showed us tactical respect by not even deploying a striker, what tactical respect did we show Bayern? All the fans at the stadium were crying out for us to shore up the midfield, the fans at home were thinking the same. I watched the match again a few days later and Gary Neville & Martin Tyler were saying what we were doing was suicidal and were questioning why MP wasn't reacting to the mauling we were getting. But react he did..... after 75 minutes when the battering was complete we finally changed our shape, pulled a goal back and started to give Bayern something to think about.
Bayern enjoyed 66% overall possession after 93 minutes, but I recall reading somewhere that their possession was as high as 75% after 75 minutes! I'm not saying that Bayern wouldn't have beaten us, but the battering we suffered needn't have happened and I'm not the only person who thinks this. And yes we did learn...... we learned that at the highest level of football tactical nous matters.
Any system can be flexible as you pointed out, but have you considered the 'flexibility' we showed against Bayern was down to the fact we were being pulled all over the place because of Bayern's superior tactics and set-up? Please read Thomas Muller's recent quote about our performance:
Bayern's super striker dropped into midfield at The Etihad in a tactical masterstroke and could not help but notice Aguero and Dzeko playing the part of bystanders on the halfway line. Muller said:
"Against City, we wanted to gain superiority in midfield. City had two attackers who - and I exaggerate a bit - sat in their deckchairs on the halfway line when we were in possession. No attacker is allowed to do that at Bayern or in the Germany team."
Opposed to Muller's comments you stated:
The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4
In short Bayern set themselves up to counter our formation and soundly battered us, we in response used an antiquated 4-4-2 system and in doing so, got what was coming......
I respect how you see that night and our general performances this season, I just see it different that's all. I have confidence that MP will sort these foibles out before too long, but TBH after his comments at the weekend that he wasn't for turning, I'm starting to get a tad worried that what we're seeing is what we're going to get and I for one am seriously worried if that is to be the case.
Finally, can anyone please tell me where our 'holistic from under 6's to the 1st team 4-3-3' formation has gone?
Fuck no. The last thing we need. Mancini's gone and he's not coming back. Time to end the fucking debate.blue ranger said:Right time to re-open his debate lol?
No. They both are not good enough. The debate should be "Who is good enough to be our next manager?"blue ranger said:Right time to re-open his debate lol?