Mancini v Pellegrini so far ......

[I'm no cynic but...]

He did allow it. His formation and tactics meant that Bayern could play exactly how they wanted to and did against us. We were open, outnumbered in midfield (greatly!), and didn't press the ball even though we played a high line. None of anything he did before the 71st minute that night made any sense nor gave us any chance to not get battered. They had time and space on the ball from the first kick off until something clicked in his head and he brought Silva and Milner on after 71minutes and made it 5 in midfield for us. Even then we were still outnumbered because they were playing with no striker but at least it helped. But by then it was too late.

The best passer of the ball in the Prem is Yaya Toure yet look at his stats v Schweinsteiger in that game:
...........................................................................Yaya Toure.........................Bastian Schweinsteiger
[Source: Opta]
Passes......................................................................43................................................73
Passing accuracy..................................................81.4%.........................................94.5%
Passing accuracy (opposing half)...................70.8%.........................................98%
Long passes...........................................................8..................................................2
Short passes.........................................................35.................................................71
Minutes played....................................................90.................................................76
Aerial duels won...................................................0...................................................1

and SS only played 76minutes! Yaya made 118 passes against Norwich with 93% passing accuracy, although it was a completely different game against a far inferior team, there's no way the best passer of the ball in England has that much of a difference in performance just because the other team are really good and are well up for it. Schweinsteiger had more time and space and more options to pass to in midfield (since he had fewer long passes) the whole time he was on the pitch; whereas Yaya's passing accuracy is usually around 92% yet it was 22-24% lower than that in Bayern's half. When Yaya had the ball men in midfield to pass to, he was subsequently closed down easily and lost the ball.

It was a tactical disaster. The thing is, i'm seeing it - to a far lesser extent, granted - in Premier League games too. It was a problem against Hull, it was the problem against Southampton.

Agree with everything you wrote there, Kippax. I would add that you can't press the ball when you're outnumbered in midfield, as Bayern showed, and as Southampton showed on Saturday. It makes it relatively easy for them to keep possession and go at our back four. Our "two up" are isolated, appear lazy for sticking to the manager's instructions and play little part in the game. Our midfield get pulled out of position and isolated and we lose shape completely. This is the horror story that Bayern showed on the big screen for everyone to see. Southampton are nowhere near as good, but if you force Toure to play without the ball and try and do those things he doesn't do well you hit the jackpot. Bayern succeeded almost completely for 75 minutes, Southampton enough to prevent Ya Ya being a dominant force in the match. But, of course, Ya Ya is as lazy as Edin, and Sergio presumably. And did we see the beast have a bad day? Or is he lazy too? Thought you post hit every nail right on the head, Kippax.

+3

Thanks Kippax. It would have taken some valuable time to research all that, but it just reinforces my original point that Bayern are world class, and City still have some way to go. If we go through the starting lineup for that game, without prior knowledge of the final score and from the squad available, only Richards at RB and Dzeko up top would likely have raised questions from supporters, me included. Our starting lineup would still have been enough to steamroller any Premier League team at home, yet if we were to ditch our system for a one-off game like this, then what were our tactical alternatives? Other than Zabba, who I would have started, and assuming we were to nullify our own attacking prowess by playing just one up front, then how could we set out to block out a strong Bayern midfield? Silva is wonderful in an attacking set up, but when it comes to playing a holding formation, and with only the ponderous Garcia on the bench, Pellegrini obviously thought that this was too risky and therefore decided we should play this game according to our proven attacking strengths rather than rely on our fragile defensive abilities to withstand pressure from a great attacking team.
As we see, it all went wrong on the night, but give the man the credit for at least believing we were capable of getting a result by playing it this way.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

I'm not clutching at straws at all. You are actually claiming that something must happen this year because it happened last year, and yet the evidence that this is true is very hard to find.

Oh the old, "It hasn't happened yet, so I'm right and you're wrong." Well, how can I possibly counter that without the use of a time machine?

Call it an educated guess, a bit of common sense. Southampton play out of their skins against top clubs and are incredibly hard to beat at St. Mary's, because they play at a tempo no other club in the league does in these 'cup final' games.

It's not rocket science to reach the conclusion that they will take points from our rivals in their home fixtures, since Pochettino's playing style is consistent and his boys give an extra something against the top teams. And they're better now than they were when they were doing it last season, which their place in the league highlights.

It's a bit like Stoke under Pulis. Every season for a while they were taking points from top clubs. You knew it was coming every time we went there, and every time we did we dropped points (in the league at least). Mancini never won in the Premier League at the Britannia, but our rivals were also dropping points there.

Let's just bookmark this thread and come back to it after Southampton have played all our rivals at home. If they have lost to over 50% of our rivals, I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong.

For now, I stand by what I said - 1pt from St. Mary's is not a bad result at all and I don't think we'll have many tougher away days than that in what remains of this season. The losses to Cardiff, Sunderland and Villa were undoubtedly poor. The draw against Southampton I have no issue with at all. Our away form appears to be improving.

"Don't see that as a valid argument at this stage" was what I said, and as it hasn't happened yet you can't say you're right. What actually happened on Saturday was that a very expensive team including several world class players went to play a weakened team of players at least a class below them, a team whose home form is moderate to say the most, and came away with a 1-1 draw. On the day this was not a bad result at all, because, if anything, Southampton were marginally the better team for the last hour of the game. This was not because of any revolution at Southampton that means the better the opposition the better they play, so that Barca or Bayern wouldn't have a chance; it was because City played a formation that isolates one of our two strikers, allows the opposition to outnumber us in midfield, allows them to run the ball at our back four and deprives us of possession and has our two top quality CMs chasing the ball rather than what they're good at. This formation means we struggle against anyone away from home - how long depends on how well they can pass. We got a draw because we defended rather better at Southampton than we did at Cardiff, Villa and Sunderland. They are not good sides as their other results tend to show, and it's no good claiming Southampton raise their game against "top" teams because they got some good results last season. Most teams seem to have little trouble raising their game against us on their own ground. It makes no difference what happens in the future - we played them now, when they were understrength and not in particularly good form at home.

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

I could be totally wrong but I get the feeling that part of the reason we are so attacking and open is that Pellegrini is convinced that we have a fantastic team who should be thrashing everyone, home and away. Hence the all-out attacking home and away, regardless of opposition. He was even happy to take on Bayern and attack.
He seems genuinely bewildered when we lose away - he just can't fathom how our players can have lost to someone like Cardiff, shaking his head and using words like "amazing", "incredible" and "disbelief" in his post-match.

Is part of the problem that the only other time he had a really great squad of players (Real Madrid) he did win almost every week, home and away ? But unfortunately, the Premier League is not like La Liga ... everyone in the PL has decent players, big squads, vocal home support, and tries really hard. As Cardiff, Villa, Sunderland, etc have showed.

We have played the best football I have seen at home, and there's no reason why we can't do it away from home,

We fell behind Arsenal in September, then we lost Kompany then Silva. But we have held the gap to 6 points for 2 months, and now they are back I expect us to start to close it.

I know all teams have to handle injuries, but it depends on who is injured. Take Rooney out of Utd and look at the consequences

I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.

The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.

Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.

The solution isn't rocket science........

But finding the players to fit the system seems to be!

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

We have played the best football I have seen at home, and there's no reason why we can't do it away from home,

We fell behind Arsenal in September, then we lost Kompany then Silva. But we have held the gap to 6 points for 2 months, and now they are back I expect us to start to close it.

I know all teams have to handle injuries, but it depends on who is injured. Take Rooney out of Utd and look at the consequences

I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.

The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.

Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.

The solution isn't rocket science........

But finding the players to fit the system seems to be!

I think this is a fairly strong argument, hough I'm not sure it's one Pellers uses because he has no intention of changing formation or bringing in anyone to the club. We've scored 41 PL goals so far and over half of them have been scored by our three forwards. Pellegrini may well not feel that he wants to risk our goals drying up away from home for benefits which may not accrue from playing a third central midfielder, who would presumably be the less than inspiring Garcia. Milner is a potential CM, but he can be rash (at least over-physical) in the tackle, and isn't the player who fits precisely our needs. I'd be tempted to try him there (rather like Keegan tried Horlock!) but Pellers obviously isn't keen. But I do fear for our title hopes.

 

[stan bowles]

Humour levels have gone right down. Also no training ground bust ups. Life is a lot smoother with Pellegrini at the helm. Not a bad start really. I give him a B- on his report card.

 

[Blankomania]

I wish someone would sort out this bloody away ground jinx. Every year whether it was under Mancini playing 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-1-2 or Pellegrini playing 4-4-2 before the fixture list is even announced you know where we will struggle:

Anywhere in Liverpool (Everton and Liverpool)
Anywhere in Wales (Cardiff and Swansea)
Sunderland
Stoke
Anywhere south of London (Portsmouth, Southampton, Brighton)
and maybe Arsenal
I'm going to call it now, you know we will struggle at crystal palace, well organised crystal palace side, playing at a small old fashioned ground with a noisy crowd.

Whoever sorts this problem out (whether its Pellegrini or the next guy) will gain my unconditional love.

 

[Pam]

If we beat the Arse on Saturday, we are well within striking distance. Even a draw would not be a disaster, given that the Chavs and the Tarquins have to play each other in the next set of games but one.

 

[Marvin]

I could be totally wrong but I get the feeling that part of the reason we are so attacking and open is that Pellegrini is convinced that we have a fantastic team who should be thrashing everyone, home and away. Hence the all-out attacking home and away, regardless of opposition. He was even happy to take on Bayern and attack.
He seems genuinely bewildered when we lose away - he just can't fathom how our players can have lost to someone like Cardiff, shaking his head and using words like "amazing", "incredible" and "disbelief" in his post-match.

Is part of the problem that the only other time he had a really great squad of players (Real Madrid) he did win almost every week, home and away ? But unfortunately, the Premier League is not like La Liga ... everyone in the PL has decent players, big squads, vocal home support, and tries really hard. As Cardiff, Villa, Sunderland, etc have showed.

We have played the best football I have seen at home, and there's no reason why we can't do it away from home,

We fell behind Arsenal in September, then we lost Kompany then Silva. But we have held the gap to 6 points for 2 months, and now they are back I expect us to start to close it.

I know all teams have to handle injuries, but it depends on who is injured. Take Rooney out of Utd and look at the consequences

I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.

The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.

Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.

The solution isn't rocket science........

Hull was one of our first games under Pellegrini when we were in some disarray, and the Utd game was over after an hour. Bayern would destroy anyone. Most teams would get thrashed and pulled apart whether they played 2 or 1 up front, and when you're playing at home, the onus is there to win the game. Attacking them is how you learn.

The only thing dogmatic about our 442 is that we usually select 2 strikers, but the system is very flexible. The two central defenders and Fernandinho stay pretty much fixed, but everyone else interchanges and when we do so we don't keep it as two lines of 4

You are constructing something that does not exist and then trying to knock it down.<br /><br />-- Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:18 am --<br /><br />Just had a look at the Turkish League table

Galatasaray are 6th, 12 points behind Fenerbahce but with 1 game in hand.

I hope they qualify against Juve, but if they do go out, Mancini could find himself in trouble.

Could you imagine him at Old Trafford ;-)

 

[Pam]

Could you imagine him at Old Trafford ;-)

In a word, no.

 

[Marvin]

In a word, no.

No I know. It just crossed my mind, because he could be out of work soon, and if Utd really go into meltdown, there wont be that many experienced successful managers available mid-season