Mancini v Pellegrini so far ......

[LoveCity]

We can't continue to be this bad away from home.

We were 15th on that table two games ago, so are improving. 4pts from the last 2 games is by no means bad. If we go and drop points against Fulham away after making this progress, now that's bad.

If United, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool take 6pts from WBA away and Southampton away, I'll be very surprised. Southampton away may well now be the toughest away game in the league and no top team has been able to beat them since Pochettino took over.

 

[Pam]

We can't continue to be this bad away from home.

We were 15th on that table two games ago, so are improving. 4pts from the last 2 games is by no means bad. If we go and drop points against Fulham away after making this progress, now that's bad.

If United, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool take 6pts from WBA away and Southampton away, I'll be very surprised. Southampton away may well now be the toughest away game in the league and no top team has been able to beat them since Pochettino took over.

I agree. I'm a bit upset that it was a weakened Southampton side though, who were already on a three or four game losing streak before Saturday. MP can put the away form right if he would only stop with the stubborn shit about how to play away from home in this league. We don't have to win every away game, seeing as how dominant we are at home; but we need enough points away from home to make the home form count. Can't believe how obvious this is and yet it isn't being sorted. I'm sure Mancini would have recognised this, had be still been in post.

 

[Dribble]

I doubt if he did allow it. The truth is that we were up against one of the three truly world class teams in the game, and we were playing them in the first of a six game mini league, meaning that it was important to get at least ten points on the board before being able to relax in later games. With this in mind, Bayern were already going to be up for it, and at the same time they would have been determined to put down a marker for a new kid on the block team such as City.

He did allow it. His formation and tactics meant that Bayern could play exactly how they wanted to and did against us. We were open, outnumbered in midfield (greatly!), and didn't press the ball even though we played a high line. None of anything he did before the 71st minute that night made any sense nor gave us any chance to not get battered. They had time and space on the ball from the first kick off until something clicked in his head and he brought Silva and Milner on after 71minutes and made it 5 in midfield for us. Even then we were still outnumbered because they were playing with no striker but at least it helped. But by then it was too late.

The best passer of the ball in the Prem is Yaya Toure yet look at his stats v Schweinsteiger in that game:
...........................................................................Yaya Toure.........................Bastian Schweinsteiger
[Source: Opta]
Passes......................................................................43................................................73
Passing accuracy..................................................81.4%.........................................94.5%
Passing accuracy (opposing half)...................70.8%.........................................98%
Long passes...........................................................8..................................................2
Short passes.........................................................35.................................................71
Minutes played....................................................90.................................................76
Aerial duels won...................................................0...................................................1

and SS only played 76minutes! Yaya made 118 passes against Norwich with 93% passing accuracy, although it was a completely different game against a far inferior team, there's no way the best passer of the ball in England has that much of a difference in performance just because the other team are really good and are well up for it. Schweinsteiger had more time and space and more options to pass to in midfield (since he had fewer long passes) the whole time he was on the pitch; whereas Yaya's passing accuracy is usually around 92% yet it was 22-24% lower than that in Bayern's half. When Yaya had the ball men in midfield to pass to, he was subsequently closed down easily and lost the ball.

It was a tactical disaster. The thing is, i'm seeing it - to a far lesser extent, granted - in Premier League games too. It was a problem against Hull, it was the problem against Southampton.

Agree with everything you wrote there, Kippax. I would add that you can't press the ball when you're outnumbered in midfield, as Bayern showed, and as Southampton showed on Saturday. It makes it relatively easy for them to keep possession and go at our back four. Our "two up" are isolated, appear lazy for sticking to the manager's instructions and play little part in the game. Our midfield get pulled out of position and isolated and we lose shape completely. This is the horror story that Bayern showed on the big screen for everyone to see. Southampton are nowhere near as good, but if you force Toure to play without the ball and try and do those things he doesn't do well you hit the jackpot. Bayern succeeded almost completely for 75 minutes, Southampton enough to prevent Ya Ya being a dominant force in the match. But, of course, Ya Ya is as lazy as Edin, and Sergio presumably. And did we see the beast have a bad day? Or is he lazy too? Thought you post hit every nail right on the head, Kippax.

+3

 

[Dribble]

I could be totally wrong but I get the feeling that part of the reason we are so attacking and open is that Pellegrini is convinced that we have a fantastic team who should be thrashing everyone, home and away. Hence the all-out attacking home and away, regardless of opposition. He was even happy to take on Bayern and attack.
He seems genuinely bewildered when we lose away - he just can't fathom how our players can have lost to someone like Cardiff, shaking his head and using words like "amazing", "incredible" and "disbelief" in his post-match.

Is part of the problem that the only other time he had a really great squad of players (Real Madrid) he did win almost every week, home and away ? But unfortunately, the Premier League is not like La Liga ... everyone in the PL has decent players, big squads, vocal home support, and tries really hard. As Cardiff, Villa, Sunderland, etc have showed.

We have played the best football I have seen at home, and there's no reason why we can't do it away from home,

We fell behind Arsenal in September, then we lost Kompany then Silva. But we have held the gap to 6 points for 2 months, and now they are back I expect us to start to close it.

I know all teams have to handle injuries, but it depends on who is injured. Take Rooney out of Utd and look at the consequences

I'm sorry, but I wholly disagree with your points Marvin. You completely fail to attach any importance to tactics. After seeing us dismantle the Rags, Guardiola didn't want Bayern to suffer a similar fate. Bayern arguably have a stronger squad than we do, but Guardiola resorted to tactics to get a result.

The defeat was hard enough to take, but it was the manner of the defeat which left all of us stunned!! What you saw were two very strong teams, one was at home and set up in a Keegan-esque fashion and the other was away and set up to dominate possession, to score goals with the ability to defend their lead on-mass. We've been beaten before, but never have I seen us beaten so comprehensively.

Kompany and Silva would be a massive loss to any team, but IIRC, both played a part against Bayern. Yes we've played some unbelievable football at home, but as Hull and ManUre sussed (albeit with the latter too late to effect the outcome) that City are a different proposition once our space is closed down and we are matched or outnumbered in midfield. At this point we need tactics, not a dogmatic 4-4-2 come what may ideology. This is the reason why with the crowd behind us and generally the better players than most opponents we can get away with it at home; away when the opposition have their fans behind them and they play 3 or four players against our midfield 2 we have come a cropper more times than we haven't.

The solution isn't rocket science........

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

We can't continue to be this bad away from home.

We were 15th on that table two games ago, so are improving. 4pts from the last 2 games is by no means bad. If we go and drop points against Fulham away after making this progress, now that's bad.

If United, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool take 6pts from WBA away and Southampton away, I'll be very surprised. Southampton away may well now be the toughest away game in the league and no top team has been able to beat them since Pochettino took over.

Don't see that as a valid argument at this stage. The only teams they've beaten at home in the PL this season re Palace, Fulham, Hull and Swansea - hardly a clutch of top teams - while Sunderland and West ham took a point off them and Villa got all 3. That match should have been three points for City, like four other away games this season.

 

[LoveCity]

Don't see that as a valid argument at this stage. The only teams they've beaten at home in the PL this season re Palace, Fulham, Hull and Swansea - hardly a clutch of top teams

That's because City are the only top team they've played at home this season, so they can't yet beat teams they haven't played.

We can all agree the Saints have improved from last season after spending a lot of money last summer and now being further up the table. So I'll bring this out again to illustrate my point of how hard Southampton away is becoming for the top teams they raise their game against:

Southampton 2-3 United
Southampton 1-2 Spurs

* Pochettino takes over *

Southampton 1-1 Arsenal
Southampton 3-1 City
Southampton 3-1 Liverpool
Southampton 2-1 Chelsea
Southampton 1-1 City

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

Don't see that as a valid argument at this stage. The only teams they've beaten at home in the PL this season re Palace, Fulham, Hull and Swansea - hardly a clutch of top teams

That's because City are the only top team they've played at home this season, so they can't yet beat teams they haven't played.

We can all agree the Saints have improved from last season after spending a lot of money last summer and now being further up the table. So I'll bring this out again to illustrate my point of how hard Southampton away is becoming for the top teams they raise their game against:

Southampton 2-3 United
Southampton 1-2 Spurs

* Pochettino takes over *

Southampton 1-1 Arsenal
Southampton 3-1 City
Southampton 3-1 Liverpool
Southampton 2-1 Chelsea
Southampton 1-1 City

You didn't add, from this season

Southampton 1-1 Sunderland
Southampton 0-0 West ham
Southampton 2-3Villa

which seem a deal more recent than the matches you quote. So having no evidence, apart from Saturday's game, of their ability against "top" sides this season it is impossible to argue that Southampton are a tough nut to crack at home this season. Their home record was mediocre going into Saturday's game. You make ludicrously general conclusions from very thin, and outdated evidence.

 

[LoveCity]

Don't see that as a valid argument at this stage. The only teams they've beaten at home in the PL this season re Palace, Fulham, Hull and Swansea - hardly a clutch of top teams

That's because City are the only top team they've played at home this season, so they can't yet beat teams they haven't played.

We can all agree the Saints have improved from last season after spending a lot of money last summer and now being further up the table. So I'll bring this out again to illustrate my point of how hard Southampton away is becoming for the top teams they raise their game against:

Southampton 2-3 United
Southampton 1-2 Spurs

* Pochettino takes over *

Southampton 1-1 Arsenal
Southampton 3-1 City
Southampton 3-1 Liverpool
Southampton 2-1 Chelsea
Southampton 1-1 City

You didn't add, from this season

Southampton 1-1 Sunderland
Southampton 0-0 West ham
Southampton 2-3Villa

which seem a deal more recent than the matches you quote. So having no evidence, apart from Saturday's game, of their ability against "top" sides this season it is impossible to argue that Southampton are a tough nut to crack at home this season. Their home record was mediocre going into Saturday's game. You make ludicrously general conclusions from very thin, and outdated evidence.

What did I make clear?

That they raise their game against top clubs!

Guess what! They did the same last season. They beat Liverpool and Chelsea at home on the bounce, then drew 1-1 when West Ham visited them and then in their next home game West Brom beat them 0-3. This is what these teams do and it's the very reason they don't finish higher - they work their arses off and then some more against top teams, but don't have the mentality to do it against more modest sides.

You're clutching at straws saying because they have only played one top team at home this season, they will no longer be tough to beat there, despite improving since taking all those results from top teams last season. I think it's pretty clear watching the incredible energy and effort they expended against us, they will do the same against other teams, pressing and harassing them, making it hard to find any sort of rhythm.

City used to do it against United and sometimes stole points from them despite being half the team. We also ended Mourinho's unbeaten record in his first season at Chelsea.

Southampton are the best of the game-raising home teams.

You watch - at least two of United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal will drop points there - I'd guess most of them will come away with a draw at best.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

That's because City are the only top team they've played at home this season, so they can't yet beat teams they haven't played.

We can all agree the Saints have improved from last season after spending a lot of money last summer and now being further up the table. So I'll bring this out again to illustrate my point of how hard Southampton away is becoming for the top teams they raise their game against:

Southampton 2-3 United
Southampton 1-2 Spurs

* Pochettino takes over *

Southampton 1-1 Arsenal
Southampton 3-1 City
Southampton 3-1 Liverpool
Southampton 2-1 Chelsea
Southampton 1-1 City

You didn't add, from this season

Southampton 1-1 Sunderland
Southampton 0-0 West ham
Southampton 2-3Villa

which seem a deal more recent than the matches you quote. So having no evidence, apart from Saturday's game, of their ability against "top" sides this season it is impossible to argue that Southampton are a tough nut to crack at home this season. Their home record was mediocre going into Saturday's game. You make ludicrously general conclusions from very thin, and outdated evidence.

What did I make clear?

That they raise their game against top clubs!

Guess what! They did the same last season. They beat Liverpool and Chelsea at home on the bounce, then drew 1-1 when West Ham visited them and then in their next home game West Brom beat them 0-3. This is what these teams do and it's the very reason they don't finish higher - they work their arses off and then some more against top teams, but don't have the mentality to do it against more modest sides.

You're clutching at straws saying because they have only played one top team at home this season, they will no longer be tough to beat there, despite improving since taking all those results from top teams last season.

City used to do it against United and sometimes stole points from them despite being half the team. We also ended Mourinho's unbeaten record in his first season at Chelsea.

Southampton are the best of the game-raising home teams.

You watch - at least two of United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal will drop points there - I'd guess most of them will come away with a draw at best.

I'm not clutching at straws at all. You are actually claiming that something must happen this year because it happened last year, and yet the evidence that this is true is very hard to find. Everton hadn't won at the swamp since...Newcastle hadn't won there since ...1972. Di Canio had enough wins to save Sunderland last season, but this season... The only certainty so far is that Southampton's home form has been moderate at best this season - wins against two sides in the relegation places, wins against two lower mid-table teams, draws against the other team in the relegation places and the team in 17th place, and defeat to the team in 10th. If posters on here wish to argue that city's away form is actually 4 points from two games it seems fairer to say Southampton's home form is moderate, rather than to give them points for games they haven't played.

Your claims about games against United are true, but Southampton is hardly a derby, and our record against the rags season on season doesn't make good reading for 20 years before the takeover. We didn't win at OT between April 1974 and February 2008! Our victories at home were few and far between, though they could be glorious, and actually show, as does the 1-0 victory over Chelsea (along with a 0-0 at their place the same season) the difficulty of "raising your game" in consecutive seasons against top teams with better players. I will "watch" and I'll hope other "top" teams drop all 3 points at Southampton but I'll point out that the rags don't look a top team right now - another contrast to last season - and, if you look at the away games we've lost, we are the only "top" team to have been beaten there: at Cardiff Everton and United drew while Spurs and Arsenal won, at Villa Liverpool, Everton and Spurs have all won, while at Sunderland Arsenal, Liverpool and United have all won (as did Fulham!). Our away form is awful for a "top" team, especially as United are struggling to make the top four, Spurs are considered unlikely to make it and Liverpool are 50-50!

 

[LoveCity]

I'm not clutching at straws at all. You are actually claiming that something must happen this year because it happened last year, and yet the evidence that this is true is very hard to find.

Oh the old, "It hasn't happened yet, so I'm right and you're wrong." Well, how can I possibly counter that without the use of a time machine?

Call it an educated guess, a bit of common sense. Southampton play out of their skins against top clubs and are incredibly hard to beat at St. Mary's, because they play at a tempo no other club in the league does in these 'cup final' games.

It's not rocket science to reach the conclusion that they will take points from our rivals in their home fixtures, since Pochettino's playing style is consistent and his boys give an extra something against the top teams. And they're better now than they were when they were doing it last season, which their place in the league highlights.

It's a bit like Stoke under Pulis. Every season for a while they were taking points from top clubs. You knew it was coming every time we went there, and every time we did we dropped points (in the league at least). Mancini never won in the Premier League at the Britannia, but our rivals were also dropping points there.

Let's just bookmark this thread and come back to it after Southampton have played all our rivals at home. If they have lost to over 50% of our rivals, I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong.

For now, I stand by what I said - 1pt from St. Mary's is not a bad result at all and I don't think we'll have many tougher away days than that in what remains of this season. The losses to Cardiff, Sunderland and Villa were undoubtedly poor. The draw against Southampton I have no issue with at all. Our away form appears to be improving.