Mancini

[Phil1]

Yes there are different skills involved. Mancini is ideally suited to one aspect and not the other. Equally people can learn and adapt. The mistake we make is that we assume managers and coaches don't learn or evolve. Taggert certainly has evolved his management style with age and experience and Mancini may do so as well.

Of course Mancini may prefer just being Mancini in which case he has a specific talent which is highly marketable as demonstrated by his time at Inter and City.

This is slightly glib and simplistic but Mancini seems to work best when there is turmoil and conflict swirling round him - its just a question of how much shelf life there is in such an approach and whether he is as effective when all is quiet and serene. Going by this season possible not.

Mancini is a hard guy to work out though. His man management is on the face of it appalling yet it seems to work. Genuinely I think a lot of people have a hard time figuring him out which leads to a lot of divided opinion.

Not a bad take.

He's stubborn and single-minded, that's probably his biggest personality trait. You've all watched the qpr game repeatedly. It's interesting what souness says after the game when asked about his time working with Mancini. I cant remember word for word but its more or less 'you couldn't tell him anything. Nothing. Even as a young lad, no matter what he was told and who by, he knew better'. That's why he gets results with clubs going through rapid change: he's not scared to cut sacred trees down, or to stare people down who have ideas he believes are above their station. We saw it with half a dozen of our players on his first twelve months, and ultimately that got results. He is full of himself and is able to say 'fuck you' to anyone who stands in his way whilst he instills a hard, don't settle for second beat, culture. He also seems to understand that the best players to include in his culture are self motivated, bright ones. Like hart, kompany, de Jong, clichy, dzeko, toure etc.

Tactically he's well researched and in tune with modern thinking. But this is where his weaknesses start, I remember during his first home game, I think it was stoke. He changed formation after 30 minutes because our midfield was getting overrun and it worked a treat. I was delighted, I thought 'we've got a real manager here'. But then within a few games he had us as a 4411 with petrov on the right and swp on the left. Inverted wingers is of course an extremely effective formation and has been fashionable for the last few years. But it only works when you have players like Ribery, Robinho, even Adam Johnson, who can come inside with the ball at their feet. Neither of those two can; their games are about going outside people. In doing this he neutered those players and neutered our cutting edge. It's a mistake he makes repeatedly; putting the horse before the cart: his obsession with making the 352 work early this season was based on his desire to use a modern system and it fell down on his seeming inability to comprehend that if your players don't fit a formation, it will fail, no matter what the textbook says.

I think this weakness, a drive to ask things of players which they can't deliver, is a big one. Of course it's a cliche to say he is not a good people person but I think it's true. Whilst you can probably trust some players to motivate themselves, and even to want to prove you wrong if you've hammered them, you cannot expect all of your squad to respond to this. Even if your buying policy reflects this style, you'll always have players who need confidence through support.

I think these strengths and weaknesses , whilst of course not giving the whole picture, go some way toward explaining his previous domestic success, his European failure and also our regression this this season. European football is just football but you are playing good teams with exceptional managers. I think Mancini isn't good enough technically to get the right results in these games.

That's why I think he's a man for a short term hit, a good manager to turn a ship around. But once it's turned I think his weaknesses come to the fore as we've seen at city and his last job. Being pig headed and aloof doesn't work long term with top level players. It alienates them and eventually they start to lose respect and just think you're not on their side.

Great post. Someone else offered an interesting opinion last week. They felt Mancini can't let go of actually playing the game still.

It clouds his judgement in the respect of his emotions. He sees footballers making errors and all he can equate it to is how he would have done it so much better.

You see him out there still playing in the training sessions, you very rarely have that with any managers these days, let alone, supposed top ones?

I think in his own head, having been such a great technical player, himself, he struggles to reconcile things which came so easy to him.

That manifests itself with his rush to judgement a little too quickly IMO.

Those frustrations mount simply because what he could do with his own feet, and what he now tries to implement from his own head, towards his teams, he can't achieve to the fullest?

I think there's a lot of truth in that Tolmie - which is why I think he needs more time.
This is a side of him thats likely to subside over the coming seasons as Mancini matures and finds a balance.
For me he's shown already that the potential to be a top manager is in there - I just hope that we're the job that fulfils that potential.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We were 28th ranked team last season. We are currently 20th rated team. We might drop another couple of places before the end of the season. But our chances of pot 2 depend on the teams above us qualifying for next years comp or not.

That is very true, but pot 3 the likely one. Looking at the co ratings, once the draw has been made for next season we will drop to 26th so it will be pot 3 for the next 2 seasons at least. Thankfully the year after we only lose just over 3 points off our total so as long as we do ok to well, we will start to climb more significantly from then onwards. Unless our luck in the draws changes we are in for another tough 2 years in the Champs league

Pots mean nothing really. Napoli last year, Dortmund this year... Guess which pots?

-- Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:25 pm --

Not a bad take.

He's stubborn and single-minded, that's probably his biggest personality trait. You've all watched the qpr game repeatedly. It's interesting what souness says after the game when asked about his time working with Mancini. I cant remember word for word but its more or less 'you couldn't tell him anything. Nothing. Even as a young lad, no matter what he was told and who by, he knew better'. That's why he gets results with clubs going through rapid change: he's not scared to cut sacred trees down, or to stare people down who have ideas he believes are above their station. We saw it with half a dozen of our players on his first twelve months, and ultimately that got results. He is full of himself and is able to say 'fuck you' to anyone who stands in his way whilst he instills a hard, don't settle for second beat, culture. He also seems to understand that the best players to include in his culture are self motivated, bright ones. Like hart, kompany, de Jong, clichy, dzeko, toure etc.

Tactically he's well researched and in tune with modern thinking. But this is where his weaknesses start, I remember during his first home game, I think it was stoke. He changed formation after 30 minutes because our midfield was getting overrun and it worked a treat. I was delighted, I thought 'we've got a real manager here'. But then within a few games he had us as a 4411 with petrov on the right and swp on the left. Inverted wingers is of course an extremely effective formation and has been fashionable for the last few years. But it only works when you have players like Ribery, Robinho, even Adam Johnson, who can come inside with the ball at their feet. Neither of those two can; their games are about going outside people. In doing this he neutered those players and neutered our cutting edge. It's a mistake he makes repeatedly; putting the horse before the cart: his obsession with making the 352 work early this season was based on his desire to use a modern system and it fell down on his seeming inability to comprehend that if your players don't fit a formation, it will fail, no matter what the textbook says.

I think this weakness, a drive to ask things of players which they can't deliver, is a big one. Of course it's a cliche to say he is not a good people person but I think it's true. Whilst you can probably trust some players to motivate themselves, and even to want to prove you wrong if you've hammered them, you cannot expect all of your squad to respond to this. Even if your buying policy reflects this style, you'll always have players who need confidence through support.

I think these strengths and weaknesses , whilst of course not giving the whole picture, go some way toward explaining his previous domestic success, his European failure and also our regression this this season. European football is just football but you are playing good teams with exceptional managers. I think Mancini isn't good enough technically to get the right results in these games.

That's why I think he's a man for a short term hit, a good manager to turn a ship around. But once it's turned I think his weaknesses come to the fore as we've seen at city and his last job. Being pig headed and aloof doesn't work long term with top level players. It alienates them and eventually they start to lose respect and just think you're not on their side.

Great post. Someone else offered an interesting opinion last week. They felt Mancini can't let go of actually playing the game still.

It clouds his judgement in the respect of his emotions. He sees footballers making errors and all he can equate it to is how he would have done it so much better.

You see him out there still playing in the training sessions, you very rarely have that with any managers these days, let alone, supposed top ones?

I think in his own head, having been such a great technical player, himself, he struggles to reconcile things which came so easy to him.

That manifests itself with his rush to judgement a little too quickly IMO.

Those frustrations mount simply because what he could do with his own feet, and what he now tries to implement from his own head, towards his teams, he can't achieve to the fullest?

Well put Tolmie... Glenn Hoddle had the same problem!

Nah. He was just shite. End of.

When a manager starts saying of a particular player "he eats really well", you know you have a fruitcake on your hands.

 

[lancs blue]

Not a bad take.

He's stubborn and single-minded, that's probably his biggest personality trait. You've all watched the qpr game repeatedly. It's interesting what souness says after the game when asked about his time working with Mancini. I cant remember word for word but its more or less 'you couldn't tell him anything. Nothing. Even as a young lad, no matter what he was told and who by, he knew better'. That's why he gets results with clubs going through rapid change: he's not scared to cut sacred trees down, or to stare people down who have ideas he believes are above their station. We saw it with half a dozen of our players on his first twelve months, and ultimately that got results. He is full of himself and is able to say 'fuck you' to anyone who stands in his way whilst he instills a hard, don't settle for second beat, culture. He also seems to understand that the best players to include in his culture are self motivated, bright ones. Like hart, kompany, de Jong, clichy, dzeko, toure etc.

Tactically he's well researched and in tune with modern thinking. But this is where his weaknesses start, I remember during his first home game, I think it was stoke. He changed formation after 30 minutes because our midfield was getting overrun and it worked a treat. I was delighted, I thought 'we've got a real manager here'. But then within a few games he had us as a 4411 with petrov on the right and swp on the left. Inverted wingers is of course an extremely effective formation and has been fashionable for the last few years. But it only works when you have players like Ribery, Robinho, even Adam Johnson, who can come inside with the ball at their feet. Neither of those two can; their games are about going outside people. In doing this he neutered those players and neutered our cutting edge. It's a mistake he makes repeatedly; putting the horse before the cart: his obsession with making the 352 work early this season was based on his desire to use a modern system and it fell down on his seeming inability to comprehend that if your players don't fit a formation, it will fail, no matter what the textbook says.

I think this weakness, a drive to ask things of players which they can't deliver, is a big one. Of course it's a cliche to say he is not a good people person but I think it's true. Whilst you can probably trust some players to motivate themselves, and even to want to prove you wrong if you've hammered them, you cannot expect all of your squad to respond to this. Even if your buying policy reflects this style, you'll always have players who need confidence through support.

I think these strengths and weaknesses , whilst of course not giving the whole picture, go some way toward explaining his previous domestic success, his European failure and also our regression this this season. European football is just football but you are playing good teams with exceptional managers. I think Mancini isn't good enough technically to get the right results in these games.

That's why I think he's a man for a short term hit, a good manager to turn a ship around. But once it's turned I think his weaknesses come to the fore as we've seen at city and his last job. Being pig headed and aloof doesn't work long term with top level players. It alienates them and eventually they start to lose respect and just think you're not on their side.

Great post. Someone else offered an interesting opinion last week. They felt Mancini can't let go of actually playing the game still.

It clouds his judgement in the respect of his emotions. He sees footballers making errors and all he can equate it to is how he would have done it so much better.

You see him out there still playing in the training sessions, you very rarely have that with any managers these days, let alone, supposed top ones?

I think in his own head, having been such a great technical player, himself, he struggles to reconcile things which came so easy to him.

That manifests itself with his rush to judgement a little too quickly IMO.

Those frustrations mount simply because what he could do with his own feet, and what he now tries to implement from his own head, towards his teams, he can't achieve to the fullest?

I think there's a lot of truth in that Tolmie - which is why I think he needs more time.
This is a side of him thats likely to subside over the coming seasons as Mancini matures and finds a balance.
For me he's shown already that the potential to be a top manager is in there - I just hope that we're the job that fulfils that potential.

Totally agree, Pablo. People forget that Mancini is still relatively young, Ferguson didn't win his first PL title until he was 51 and his first CL when he was 57. Yes Mourinho is a similar age to Mancini and has a better record but I remain unconvinced that he would hang around too long at any club.

 

[crystal_mais]

Great post. Someone else offered an interesting opinion last week. They felt Mancini can't let go of actually playing the game still.

It clouds his judgement in the respect of his emotions. He sees footballers making errors and all he can equate it to is how he would have done it so much better.

You see him out there still playing in the training sessions, you very rarely have that with any managers these days, let alone, supposed top ones?

I think in his own head, having been such a great technical player, himself, he struggles to reconcile things which came so easy to him.

That manifests itself with his rush to judgement a little too quickly IMO.

Those frustrations mount simply because what he could do with his own feet, and what he now tries to implement from his own head, towards his teams, he can't achieve to the fullest?

I think there's a lot of truth in that Tolmie - which is why I think he needs more time.
This is a side of him thats likely to subside over the coming seasons as Mancini matures and finds a balance.
For me he's shown already that the potential to be a top manager is in there - I just hope that we're the job that fulfils that potential.

Totally agree, Pablo. People forget that Mancini is still relatively young, Ferguson didn't win his first PL title until he was 51 and his first CL when he was 57. Yes Mourinho is a similar age to Mancini and has a better record but I remain unconvinced that he would hang around too long at any club.

Guys please stop comparing managers to Fergie - totally different era. Football was different - when he started

 

[VOOMER]

Don't shoot the messenger please,only posted something I found......I did say"dunno how true"

dude, why post it, even you think its bollocks!

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You see, this is where I lose the 'he needs time to develop', 'he's still young', 'he's learning all the time' argument. For the reasons I've given above I don't think he will ever change. There's a fascinating interview with khaldoon in David conn's book where khaldoon even says that Mancini 'needs to evolve'. I think there he's hinting at his man management skills which have always been questioned.

There hasn't been Any sign at all that he's improving on that score. He's still criticising his players in public. He's still blurting stuff out in press conferences. He's still giving players the sulk when they come off having played badly. He's still bawling and screaming on the touch line when things are going wrong.

I think souness's comments 'he won't be told anything by anyone' are the reason why he is what he is and will always be that abrasive character.

 

[lancs blue]

I think there's a lot of truth in that Tolmie - which is why I think he needs more time.
This is a side of him thats likely to subside over the coming seasons as Mancini matures and finds a balance.
For me he's shown already that the potential to be a top manager is in there - I just hope that we're the job that fulfils that potential.

Totally agree, Pablo. People forget that Mancini is still relatively young, Ferguson didn't win his first PL title until he was 51 and his first CL when he was 57. Yes Mourinho is a similar age to Mancini and has a better record but I remain unconvinced that he would hang around too long at any club.

Guys please stop comparing managers to Fergie - totally different era. Football was different - when he started

So you're one of those "football only started in 1992" people are you?

 

[VOOMER]

I think there's a lot of truth in that Tolmie - which is why I think he needs more time.
This is a side of him thats likely to subside over the coming seasons as Mancini matures and finds a balance.
For me he's shown already that the potential to be a top manager is in there - I just hope that we're the job that fulfils that potential.

Totally agree, Pablo. People forget that Mancini is still relatively young, Ferguson didn't win his first PL title until he was 51 and his first CL when he was 57. Yes Mourinho is a similar age to Mancini and has a better record but I remain unconvinced that he would hang around too long at any club.

Guys please stop comparing managers to Fergie - totally different era. Football was different - when he started

yes bully boy comes from a sick and twisted era, he would have been sacked at the big European clubs with only 2 champions league wins.<br /><br />-- Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:07 pm --<br /><br />

You see, this is where I lose the 'he needs time to develop', 'he's still young', 'he's learning all the time' argument. For the reasons I've given above I don't think he will ever change. There's a fascinating interview with khaldoon in David conn's book where khaldoon even says that Mancini 'needs to evolve'. I think there he's hinting at his man management skills which have always been questioned.

There hasn't been Any sign at all that he's improving on that score. He's still criticising his players in public. He's still blurting stuff out in press conferences. He's still giving players the sulk when they come off having played badly. He's still bawling and screaming on the touch line when things are going wrong.

I think souness's comments 'he won't be told anything by anyone' are the reason why he is what he is and will always be that abrasive character.

I read the book to DD. I have no doubt that you and good number of the forum members could do a better job. It's horse shit, he gets many details wrong and the book is more to do with how righteous David Conn is than what our clubs about, merchant banker comes to mind.

 

[crystal_mais]

Totally agree, Pablo. People forget that Mancini is still relatively young, Ferguson didn't win his first PL title until he was 51 and his first CL when he was 57. Yes Mourinho is a similar age to Mancini and has a better record but I remain unconvinced that he would hang around too long at any club.

Guys please stop comparing managers to Fergie - totally different era. Football was different - when he started

So you're one of those "football only started in 1992" people are you?

Well considering I am 40 years old and been supporting City for 34 years. Football did not start in 92 no, but this brand of monopoly corporate football did.

you made some points that Mancini is young and compared him to Fergie. I've made an aged based response to your statement. Did Fergie win the first ever PL? What were the competitions prior to that he managed in? How successful was he? What was his success at Aberdeen? Would you class that as successful?

Fergies career didn't start at the age of 51

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Will posters please desist from calling him 'Fergie'. It's far too an avuncular term of address for my liking.

There are plenty of alternatives to choose from.