Manuel Pellegrini (cont)

[Damocles]

Good to see you back.

Seems you knew as much about where I went as you did about that post on Pellegrini

Sorry I don't have a GPS on you Damo.

Pathetic post on MP now that you mention it again.

One of your worst I have read.

But wait, "you know why" I was forced underground (i.e. went to the shops). I'm sure that you couldn't have just invented that and some GPS tracker or spy microphone is involved.

 

[mancity1]

Seems you knew as much about where I went as you did about that post on Pellegrini

Sorry I don't have a GPS on you Damo.

Pathetic post on MP now that you mention it again.

One of your worst I have read.

But wait, "you know why" I was forced underground (i.e. went to the shops). I'm sure that you couldn't have just invented that and some GPS tracker or spy microphone is involved.

Happy to have you back Damo.

Lets talk about MP.

One of his best performances to date I think for us today.

Don't you agree?

 

[Mike N]

Some right clowns on here tonight. I'm sticking with our experienced and successful manager over some herbert on Bluemoon.

 

[Damocles]

Damo,

You are an intelligent poster but there is some real crap in that moan.

Pellegrini is exactly the guy we need in charge at the moment and I am sure he will bring young players through if they are good enough.

Let me explain myself a bit easier because nobody has read the post.

Pellegrini when he was brought in was supposed to be a person who would ensure that there would be a pathway developed from the Academy to the first team; this is something that he stated, Vieira stated and Soriano stated. It was one of the two or three major reasons we were given about why Pellegrini was the right man for the job. Let's be clear that I stressed in the post earlier that I don't think he's a bad manager, I said that he will win trophies here and that's fine but it's not the manager we were sold on. There are plenty of managers out there who can win titles, we needed a very specific type of person who would not only win titles but he'd calm the storm after Mancini left, manage relationships at all areas of the club and bring through Academy graduates.

This last one to me is more important than winning 10 titles - Chelsea win titles and Champions League yet they still have no pathway into their team from the Academy. Yet despite being incredibly well known for their lack of youth policy, more Chelsea Academy graduates played for City today than City Academy graduates. This is a situation which we cannot just ignore and the club themselves are constantly and repeatedly banging on about how it isn't good enough to have 0 club trained players in our ranks. It's why they just spent several hundred million quid building the Etihad Campus.

I do think that this is a fundamental problem with our type of investor model, they solved all of their previous problems by buying new players so the mindset of the fans is always to buy new players to solve any other problems. More than that, there is a short term nature around the place where every point is so desperately under pressure that an often heard argument against playing young players is that they will weaken the squad and we cannot take that risk. Unfortunately that's just the nature of bringing through young players. Joey Barton was a worse player when we brought him in than Christian Negouai (unbelievably) but he got his games anyway. This is just one of hundreds of examples and you can pick any major club out there from the Barcas to the Uniteds and you'll find the same story.

The thing is, and this is the part that I want to stress, this will never change. The idea that we can keep loaning out players until they're 22ish then seamlessly integrate them into the squad doesn't work and it has never worked. Chelsea also went down this exact same route in about 2005 or so when they brought in the Sinclairs and the Parkers of the world - it didn't work because of many different reasons but one of them is that players aren't idiots who feel blessed to be working at this fine institution. Do you know why Pozo joined City? As in the reason he gave in his interview? Because Real Madrid were stuck in that mould of always wanting a bit more before they integrated players into their team. It takes a lot of courage for a manager to play youth in a game but the managers of Bayern, Barca, Ajax and United (amongst others) understand that it is part of their job description.

I look at some of our young players since Pellegrini has come in. Nastasic has all but disappeared. Boyata is in the squad for no other reason than he's a HG player. Rony Lopes is over in Lille and will be expecting to come back to first team football in a squad with Silva, Nasri, Milner, and Navas. Karim Rekik is getting caps for The Netherlands and was still loaned out because we went and spent £32m on Mangala who while he is a good player, is taking a spot in our squad. Jason Denayer is making his name in Scotland and is a great defender - whose spot is he going to take when he gets back? Him and Rekik are two fine players who now must battle it out for one place presuming Demichelis moves on and neither of them want to sit around on the bench after playing first team football with some great European clubs.

So we have a pretty strong hotbed of talent here all of whom are casting eyes on the squad. We're also under increased media scrutiny due to the comments of former young players like Rodwell, Johnson and others (inevitably probably Scott Sinclair) about how joining our team is poison for a young player trying to make their way in the game. Oh and that massive fuss we made about how we're committed to young players about 10 days ago where we invited the world's press to come and quaff champagne at our new facility. We're now even grabbing 30+ year old players like Sagna and Demichelis with the press comparing it to Txiki's time at Barca where he tried to consistently buy older players and replace them in the squad with youth.

Now ask yourselves, what have we actually seen in those departments from Pellegrini? Lopes had a few appearances in the Carling Cup last year, think Emyr Huws got a debut against Blackburn, Pozo has been forcibly played and subbed off, I've seen Angelino on the bench a little while back and perhaps Barker though I'm not sure of that one.

Today was an absolute no brainer - it was as clear as day to non-City fans and to some of us aswell. You have no fit strikers so you grab a striker from your Academy to fill in. It's what everybody else in the world can manage. The idea that a player who is the quality of Thierry Ambrose is going to be pleased watching Scott Sinclair and Frank Lampard, two players who probably won't even be here in three weeks, getting on the pitch when there's absolutely no first team strikers available and we're 2-0/3-0 up at home to a relegation threatened team all out of steam is somewhat ludicrous.

We're not Ikkle City any more and we're not talking about local lads who are just excited that they even get to sit on the hallowed bench. Many of our youth players including Lopes, Pozo and Ambrose are some of the best youngsters in the entire world who we beat the top CL clubs to their signatures. They came here to get opportunities to play, they're ambitious and know exactly how good they are. Many of our kids are absolutely tearing up their national leagues and our U-19s are making the entirety of Europe shit themselves with how dominant we were in our groups this year. You can loan out the Devante Coles and the Ellis Plumbers of the world to Barnsley or whoever and think that it would be nice if they came back and challenged for a first team place. But these aren't those type of players; they won't be pleased with a spot on a bench nor a loan to Burton Albion.

You see we're not talking about Pellegrini's tactical performance, nor his ability to win games which any idiot who can read a league table can see, my problem with him is that there is a pattern starting to emerge on his lack of trust in young players. There was a perfect time to blend in some youth players in the past that I expressed some concerns over - the 6-0 Carling Cup return tie against West Ham and he played squad players rather than give the kids a chance in a game that would be monumentally difficult to fuck up. Today was a another continuation of that - it was the absolute perfect opportunity to show faith in not just a single player but our development system and show every other EDS/U-18 player that we're going to use the Academy to supplement the first team which means they'll get their chances.

You can argue that it was right to play a midfielder in James Milner up front; I personally disagree but that's one of those things that we put down to a game of opinions. The idea that we've got one of the hottest young strikers in the world sat on our bench absolutely desperate to get on the pitch then we put in a 36 year old loanee midfielder and a guy thought to be living next door to Lord Lucan is madness. You lot all seem to think that he'll be walking away thinking "wow, it was great to match the match slightly closer than what I usually would to the pitch". I believe that the modern youth footballer, especially someone of Ambrose talent, will be looking at Lampard going on at 2-0 and especially Sinclair at 3-0 and thinking "why the fuck am I even here if you had no intention of using me?".

I think he made a mistake there. I also think he made that mistake against West Ham, and a few other times where the game was easily won and he was more bothered about match fitness of squad players. I've been nothing but a vehement supporter of Pellegrini because I think he's a good manager and think he will win us trophies. One of the pillars of my support for him was an understanding that he was the guy who would bring through these young lads and make them into important squad players. I don't see that happening and now think that there are managers out there who can do this and also win the trophies that Pellegrini has been doing. This isn't a results based problem (as you can tell because I'm posting it after a 3-0 win where Pelle did extremely well otherwise), it's a problem I've had increasingly for months and today just confirmed my suspicions that one of the pillars of support I had for him was built on sand. All that's happened now is that I've decided that there are people who can do his job better than he is currently doing - not an unpopular opinion I might add as even his most ardent supporter would admit that he is no Mourinho or whomever their favourite manager is.

 

[mancity1]

Damo,

You are an intelligent poster but there is some real crap in that moan.

Pellegrini is exactly the guy we need in charge at the moment and I am sure he will bring young players through if they are good enough.

Let me explain myself a bit easier because nobody has read the post.

Pellegrini when he was brought in was supposed to be a person who would ensure that there would be a pathway developed from the Academy to the first team; this is something that he stated, Vieira stated and Soriano stated. It was one of the two or three major reasons we were given about why Pellegrini was the right man for the job. Let's be clear that I stressed in the post earlier that I don't think he's a bad manager, I said that he will win trophies here and that's fine but it's not the manager we were sold on. There are plenty of managers out there who can win titles, we needed a very specific type of person who would not only win titles but he'd calm the storm after Mancini left, manage relationships at all areas of the club and bring through Academy graduates.

This last one to me is more important than winning 10 titles - Chelsea win titles and Champions League yet they still have no pathway into their team from the Academy. Yet despite being incredibly well known for their lack of youth policy, more Chelsea Academy graduates played for City today than City Academy graduates. This is a situation which we cannot just ignore and the club themselves are constantly and repeatedly banging on about how it isn't good enough to have 0 club trained players in our ranks. It's why they just spent several hundred million quid building the Etihad Campus.

I do think that this is a fundamental problem with our type of investor model, they solved all of their previous problems by buying new players so the mindset of the fans is always to buy new players to solve any other problems. More than that, there is a short term nature around the place where every point is so desperately under pressure that an often heard argument against playing young players is that they will weaken the squad and we cannot take that risk. Unfortunately that's just the nature of bringing through young players. Joey Barton was a worse player when we brought him in than Christian Negouai (unbelievably) but he got his games anyway. This is just one of hundreds of examples and you can pick any major club out there from the Barcas to the Uniteds and you'll find the same story.

The thing is, and this is the part that I want to stress, this will never change. The idea that we can keep loaning out players until they're 22ish then seamlessly integrate them into the squad doesn't work and it has never worked. Chelsea also went down this exact same route in about 2005 or so when they brought in the Sinclairs and the Parkers of the world - it didn't work because of many different reasons but one of them is that players aren't idiots who feel blessed to be working at this fine institution. Do you know why Pozo joined City? As in the reason he gave in his interview? Because Real Madrid were stuck in that mould of always wanting a bit more before they integrated players into their team. It takes a lot of courage for a manager to play youth in a game but the managers of Bayern, Barca, Ajax and United (amongst others) understand that it is part of their job description.

I look at some of our young players since Pellegrini has come in. Nastasic has all but disappeared. Boyata is in the squad for no other reason than he's a HG player. Rony Lopes is over in Lille and will be expecting to come back to first team football in a squad with Silva, Nasri, Milner, and Navas. Karim Rekik is getting caps for The Netherlands and was still loaned out because we went and spent £32m on Mangala who while he is a good player, is taking a spot in our squad. Jason Denayer is making his name in Scotland and is a great defender - whose spot is he going to take when he gets back? Him and Rekik are two fine players who now must battle it out for one place presuming Demichelis moves on and neither of them want to sit around on the bench after playing first team football with some great European clubs.

So we have a pretty strong hotbed of talent here all of whom are casting eyes on the squad. We're also under increased media scrutiny due to the comments of former young players like Rodwell, Johnson and others (inevitably probably Scott Sinclair) about how joining our team is poison for a young player trying to make their way in the game. Oh and that massive fuss we made about how we're committed to young players about 10 days ago where we invited the world's press to come and quaff champagne at our new facility. We're now even grabbing 30+ year old players like Sagna and Demichelis with the press comparing it to Txiki's time at Barca where he tried to consistently buy older players and replace them in the squad with youth.

Now ask yourselves, what have we actually seen in those departments from Pellegrini? Lopes had a few appearances in the Carling Cup last year, think Emyr Huws got a debut against Blackburn, Pozo has been forcibly played and subbed off, I've seen Angelino on the bench a little while back and perhaps Barker though I'm not sure of that one.

Today was an absolute no brainer - it was as clear as day to non-City fans and to some of us aswell. You have no fit strikers so you grab a striker from your Academy to fill in. It's what everybody else in the world can manage. The idea that a player who is the quality of Thierry Ambrose is going to be pleased watching Scott Sinclair and Frank Lampard, two players who probably won't even be here in three weeks, getting on the pitch when there's absolutely no first team strikers available and we're 2-0/3-0 up at home to a relegation threatened team all out of steam is somewhat ludicrous.

We're not Ikkle City any more and we're not talking about local lads who are just excited that they even get to sit on the hallowed bench. Many of our youth players including Lopes, Pozo and Ambrose are some of the best youngsters in the entire world who we beat the top CL clubs to their signatures. They came here to get opportunities to play, they're ambitious and know exactly how good they are. Many of our kids are absolutely tearing up their national leagues and our U-19s are making the entirety of Europe shit themselves with how dominant we were in our groups this year. You can loan out the Devante Coles and the Ellis Plumbers of the world to Barnsley or whoever and think that it would be nice if they came back and challenged for a first team place. But these aren't those type of players; they won't be pleased with a spot on a bench nor a loan to Burton Albion.

You see we're not talking about Pellegrini's tactical performance, nor his ability to win games which any idiot who can read a league table can see, my problem with him is that there is a pattern starting to emerge on his lack of trust in young players. There was a perfect time to blend in some youth players in the past that I expressed some concerns over - the 6-0 Carling Cup return tie against West Ham and he played squad players rather than give the kids a chance in a game that would be monumentally difficult to fuck up. Today was a another continuation of that - it was the absolute perfect opportunity to show faith in not just a single player but our development system and show every other EDS/U-18 player that we're going to use the Academy to supplement the first team which means they'll get their chances.

You can argue that it was right to play a midfielder in James Milner up front; I personally disagree but that's one of those things that we put down to a game of opinions. The idea that we've got one of the hottest young strikers in the world sat on our bench absolutely desperate to get on the pitch then we put in a 36 year old loanee midfielder and a guy thought to be living next door to Lord Lucan is madness. You lot all seem to think that he'll be walking away thinking "wow, it was great to match the match slightly closer than what I usually would to the pitch". I believe that the modern youth footballer, especially someone of Ambrose talent, will be looking at Lampard going on at 2-0 and especially Sinclair at 3-0 and thinking "why the fuck am I even here if you had no intention of using me?".

I think he made a mistake there. I also think he made that mistake against West Ham, and a few other times where the game was easily won and he was more bothered about match fitness of squad players. I've been nothing but a vehement supporter of Pellegrini because I think he's a good manager and think he will win us trophies. One of the pillars of my support for him was an understanding that he was the guy who would bring through these young lads and make them into important squad players. I don't see that happening and now think that there are managers out there who can do this and also win the trophies that Pellegrini has been doing. This isn't a results based problem (as you can tell because I'm posting it after a 3-0 win where Pelle did extremely well otherwise), it's a problem I've had increasingly for months and today just confirmed my suspicions that one of the pillars of support I had for him was built on sand. All that's happened now is that I've decided that there are people who can do his job better than he is currently doing - not an unpopular opinion I might add as even his most ardent supporter would admit that he is no Mourinho or whomever their favourite manager is.

Of course there are better managers with better records than MP that might play a bigger role in the youth hand as such but we couldn't get them to us after we had to get rid of RM and so it is.

MP has a duty to the first team and that's what he has to look after first and foremost.

Each week he has to play the best eleven available to get the results required.

He signed a three year contract and its likely he will be replaced once the next stage of our development is completed.

To date he has done what was asked of him without doubt and we shall see how this season progresses.

Whether we agree with him or not he will more likely listen to the likes of Viera than anyone else as to whether an under age player is ready for some first team action.

 

[Damocles]

[
Of course there are better managers with better records than MP that might play a bigger role in the youth hand as such but we couldn't get them to us after we had to get rid of RM and so it is.

MP has a duty to the first team and that's what he has to look after first and foremost.

Each week he has to play the best eleven available to get the results required.

This I disagree with. It's not the holisitc approach that Soriano and Begiristan have spoken about in the past and has been roundly mocked on here. We needed and still need a manager who has a longer term and more rounded view of things than "we need three points now so no risks". This is why I put the other thing in bold THIS WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME. What people are suggesting then is that our Academy has got to produce players who are better than our starting 11. I don't think that that is possible for any Academy in the world, players who haven't played lots of first team football are always going to be worse than those who have, and farming them out for years at a time isn't the answer. Rekik is already making noises about not coming back because he feels much more at home in the Netherlands and is getting first team football there - probably because he's spent about 12 months in Manchester combined since we bought him and then loaned him to everybody but us. This is a young, homegrown player that we're going to lose/sell at the end of the season not because he isn't good enough for a squad place which he obviously is, but because he has no connection to us as a club

Whether we agree with him or not he will more likely listen to the likes of Viera than anyone else as to whether an under age player is ready for some first team action.

Then let's think about that for a second then.

If Ambrose isn't read for first team action then why is he in the first team instead of somebody who is? You've just said that he has a responsibility to get the best results on the day and surely it's a contradiction to have somebody on the bench that you have no possibility of using instead of somebody that you will?

If Ambrose is ready for first team action then why didn't he get it? Going back to your "has to get the best XI", then you're suggesting that Milner is a better striker than Ambrose

It doesn't work no matter which way you look at it from.

 

[dobobobo]

Fuck the essays! May a 72 virgins suck your cock with your wife's consent!

 

[dobobobo]

Spunk that Copper Castle!!!!

 

[waspish]

[
Of course there are better managers with better records than MP that might play a bigger role in the youth hand as such but we couldn't get them to us after we had to get rid of RM and so it is.

MP has a duty to the first team and that's what he has to look after first and foremost.

Each week he has to play the best eleven available to get the results required.

This I disagree with. It's not the holisitc approach that Soriano and Begiristan have spoken about in the past and has been roundly mocked on here. We needed and still need a manager who has a longer term and more rounded view of things than "we need three points now so no risks". This is why I put the other thing in bold THIS WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME. What people are suggesting then is that our Academy has got to produce players who are better than our starting 11. I don't think that that is possible for any Academy in the world, players who haven't played lots of first team football are always going to be worse than those who have, and farming them out for years at a time isn't the answer. Rekik is already making noises about not coming back because he feels much more at home in the Netherlands and is getting first team football there - probably because he's spent about 12 months in Manchester combined since we bought him and then loaned him to everybody but us. This is a young, homegrown player that we're going to lose/sell at the end of the season not because he isn't good enough for a squad place which he obviously is, but because he has no connection to us as a club

Whether we agree with him or not he will more likely listen to the likes of Viera than anyone else as to whether an under age player is ready for some first team action.

Then let's think about that for a second then.

If Ambrose isn't read for first team action then why is he in the first team instead of somebody who is? You've just said that he has a responsibility to get the best results on the day and surely it's a contradiction to have somebody on the bench that you have no possibility of using instead of somebody that you will?

If Ambrose is ready for first team action then why didn't he get it? Going back to your "has to get the best XI", then you're suggesting that Milner is a better striker than Ambrose

It doesn't work no matter which way you look at it from.

I tend to a agree with you.. Managers who are at City are here for a short time they don't give a shit about the youth team there job is about winnings trophies! If Pelegrini plays the 2/3 youth players most games and we end up losing the majority his job will be on the line, the only way around it is if he is told to play the youth players for above but that's not going to happen.. If you want youth players to flourish you have to play them in the first team and give them plenty of games..

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

I personally didn't think it was worth risking an injury to Ambrose by putting him on at 3-0 up. Maybe Pellegrini felt the same.

I think had it been 0-0 at 65 we would have seen him. Playing youngsters from the start aged 17 against hardened premier league defenders is a hard baptism as Pozo found out.

Milner was very willing today as he always is but first half he was all over the place and didn't have one shot in the whole game.

What he did do was help create space for others.