Manuel Pellegrini (cont)

[Bill]

The main criticism I had of Pellegrini after his first 3 months in charge is that he is not adaptable. He plays the same way, no matter who we are playing. It makes us predictable and easy to figure out for opposition managers. In fairness to him, when we were without a striker in December, he changed the make up of the team, adapted and we played well. Credit to him for that. But really we only changed out of necessity.

Yesterday against Hull, if Yaya was fit, is there any doubt in anyone's mind whatsoever that he would have started? It would probably have been a straight swap for Fernando. As I mentioned earlier, they couldn't really be more different as players. Except for both looking rather lethargic on occasions, Yaya dominates the ball, dictates play, powers through oppositions with his strength and power. Fernando trudges around the centre circle hoping nobody notices he's hiding.

Yet despite these differences in their style of play, Pellegrini will swap them, one for one and expect the same outcome. This is Hull at home, a relegation fighting team. Yaya would have dominated their midfield, we would have took the game to them. Instead we play the apparently defensive minded Fernando. Why? Lampard or Milner are both better on the ball than Fernando, more drive going forwards, better passers, Milner has a higher work rate, Lampard has a great eye for goal. Yet Fernando is picked. Why?

If we were playing Tottenham at home yesterday we'd have picked exactly the same starting line up as we did against Hull. This despite the fact Tottenham are a high pressing, front foot team who play 4 at the back. Hull are a lethargic, relegation threatened team play 3 at the back, which you would assume means we could do with some width and pace to exploit the space down their wings. But Navas, despite coming off the back of his best game for City, is on the bench. Why?

I think the answer to both questions is that Pellegrini doesn't even consider the characteristics of the other team. It's basically an irrelevance to him. He thinks as long as we have "trust" it will all work out in the end. I understand this may have been passed down from above as part of the "hollistic" approach. Well is you are Barcelona 2009-2012 which are probably the best team ever assembled, and you are playing in a league where realistically only two other teams have got any chance of giving you a game, it's fine to be arrogant enough to just stick to what you like and not consider the opposition. But this is the Premier League, the most competitive league in the world. Anyone can beat anyone, as is proven every single week.

You have to take in to account the strengths and weaknesses of other teams, the strengths and weaknesses of your team, and come up with a game plan for every single game in order to win it. Ferguson did this for years. He may have stuck to the same kind of ideals, but if a team had a slow fullback, you can guarantee he's play his quickest winger against him. Pellegrini doesn't look at the game like that.

Navas playing well against Chelsea wasn't by design. It was an accident of being the only right winger available. If Nasri had been fit, Navas probably wouldn't have been played. Navas should have started against Hull to expose the space down their channels. Lampard or Milner should have played instead of Fernando because our midfield should have been on the front foot, not sitting deep and defending against Hull. This is not some kind of specialist tactical insight, it's just common sense!

Whether these decisions are being made by Pellegrini, or above his head, one thing is for sure, with our strongest 11 available, we are good enough to stick to our favoured shape / way of playing and beat anyone in this league. But when that strongest 11 is not available, we have to adapt. We have to analyse our opponents, analyse who we have available, and figure out a game plan of how to win.

Winning is more important than being holistic.

Post of the thread and by some distance.

Thanks a lot mate. Most of the other mods have accused me of being a WUM for saying similar things, good to know at least one mod has got his head screwed on :-)

Roll on Wednesday, let's go and stuff them and show them why we're champions.

you say it as it is. good enough for me.

 

[kenzie115]

Instead I thought that diamond midfield we changed to was wierd. We have never played that formation ever I don't think. The game was too frustrating, too stop start to be making changes like that IMO.

We played a diamond in the second half at West Ham. We looked better for it but still ultimately lost the game.

 

[Hungarian blue]

Dinho was surely the guy expected to take that role? He did after all score 53 goals in 284 games for Shakhtar; hardly the stats of an out and out defensive midfielder. I barely saw him play for Shakhtar but I am sure those that did claimed he was more than just a DM there.

I've just finished with Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid book and funnily enough, he analysed a bit Lucescu's Shakhtar.

He states that in the 07/08 CL season, it was only his team that used the diamond system. Fernandinho, based on an illustration, was their left CM in this particular formation (Lewandowski being the only 'proper' DM, not the Dortmund/Bayern one of course...). They went out against Milan when the diamond system has been left exposed, and Lucescu switched into the popular 4-2-3-1.

Again, Fernandinho was the CM that played in a more advanced role, whilst Hubschmann played (2012/2013) the more defensive minded midfielder in their double pivot. So basically, it can be said that Fernandinho under Lucescu in his 7-8 years in Doneck always played a sort of a box-to-box role with being supported by a 'Fernando-like' player.

I actually always thought that Pellegrini regards him as his 'new Marcos Senna', but maybe I'm just influenced by the fact that they look the same on tv. :) Senna, just like Fernandinho, was nevere 'just a DM', although being played in front of the back four for most of the time. Just watch back Spain's 2008 Euro winning campaign, he was phenomenal in the link up play also.

 

[117 M34]

re: team selection

(just playing devil's advocate)

It was similar in style to the team Mancini won the league with.
Dzeko and aguero up front
Silva and nasri behind as play makers
2 holding midfielders (de jong and barry)
Clichy, zabba, company and hart the same

 

[OB1]

That was the team that won us the league last year if you swap Fernando for yaya.

I know I'm repeating myself but I had no problems with the starting eleven. It was the subs which were baffling. How on earth did Nasri stay on the field for 90 mins?

Because he was playing better than Silva.

That's a matter of opinion, OB. I thought Nasri was back to his worst, because he wasn't fit. Sideways passing, slowing things down, taking no risks, laying it back to the centre halfs. I'm not trying to scapegoat him: His wasn't the only poor performance: Zabaleta looked shot. Fernando hopeless again. Sergio not himself. And silva has been ineffective for 3 or 4 games. But to me he's like Sergio, he's always got a goal in him. You never take him off if you need one. And so that's my biggest criticism of the manager at the weekend: leaving a half fit and ineffective Nasri on the pitch and chucking on players out of position, willy nilly.

You can make the argument that Nasri needs the game time I suppose, as does Sergio. But I would have swapped him for Navas at half time and put on lampard for fernando.

Instead I thought that diamond midfield we changed to was wierd. We have never played that formation ever I don't think. The game was too frustrating, too stop start to be making changes like that IMO.

But I'm calmer after a period of reflection. We've made things hard for ourselves but I don't see us falling away. We need to finish this season like lions now, like we turned things around last autumn when the chips were down.

Silva passed the ball backwards more than Nasri; although Nasri went square more than Silva. Nasri did though make the most key passes in the game, four times as many as Silva (albeit 2 were from corners!) and had more shots than all bar Dzeko; plus, unsurprisingly he had the most touches of the ball and best pass completion stats. For a first game back, I think he did well.

I would though have started Navas and Milner and used Silva in the support striker role and Nasri in the Yaya role; with Nando and Dzeko on the bench. So at HT, I would have moved Nasri into the centre and left Silva on the left. I agree the diamond was odd: Silva seemed to me to have taken up residence in a pocket of space that was towards the right hand side of the pitch so more of an irregular quadrilateral than a diamond.

 

[OB1]

Dinho was surely the guy expected to take that role? He did after all score 53 goals in 284 games for Shakhtar; hardly the stats of an out and out defensive midfielder. I barely saw him play for Shakhtar but I am sure those that did claimed he was more than just a DM there.

I've just finished with Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid book and funnily enough, he analysed a bit Lucescu's Shakhtar.

He states that in the 07/08 CL season, it was only his team that used the diamond system. Fernandinho, based on an illustration, was their left CM in this particular formation (Lewandowski being the only 'proper' DM, not the Dortmund/Bayern one of course...). They went out against Milan when the diamond system has been left exposed, and Lucescu switched into the popular 4-2-3-1.

Again, Fernandinho was the CM that played in a more advanced role, whilst Hubschmann played (2012/2013) the more defensive minded midfielder in their double pivot. So basically, it can be said that Fernandinho under Lucescu in his 7-8 years in Doneck always played a sort of a box-to-box role with being supported by a 'Fernando-like' player.

I actually always thought that Pellegrini regards him as his 'new Marcos Senna', but maybe I'm just influenced by the fact that they look the same on tv. :) Senna, just like Fernandinho, was nevere 'just a DM', although being played in front of the back four for most of the time. Just watch back Spain's 2008 Euro winning campaign, he was phenomenal in the link up play also.

Thank you, that is very interesting and confirms the impression that I had got from elsewhere.

I used to dream of City signing Senna.

 

[OB1]

And so was the withdrawal of silva. It doesn't matter if he's having a poor game, he's the most likely to create a goal against a parked bus.

Silva's been our worst attacking player for some matches now. His influence less and less visible. He has cut an isolated and frustrated figure and hasn't even had his usual work rate. Personally I think that as much as I hear the "he's a match winner" arguments, I fully understood why had to be taken off. Even if it was just a shot across his bows in terms of saying "you need to produce and you haven't for too long now".

Not what I would have done, MA. He still looked our best player first half for me, but was coping with little movement around him and safe, negative passing from the others. I'm ploughing a lonely furrow on this one, and you and I have disagreed many times, but Nasri was doing nothing but play it back to the holding players and centre halfs for me. An off form Silva still has a lot more to offer than that in my opinion.

I'm Silva's biggest fan of course but he's been the lone playmaker for a month or two now, and it's made it easy for the opposition to shut him and therefore us out. That's affected his form. Usually you man mark silva and yaya and Nasri punch a hole in your defence. That's been gone, with a predictable Navas poking cross after cross at the front man. That's why I'm not buying this 'navas should have started' stuff. I wouldn't have picked him.

You are and it sometimes blinds you to the attributes and importance of Yaya and Nasri ;-) Although if you have not now realised that Yaya is and has been our most important player...

 

[BobKowalski]

re: team selection

(just playing devil's advocate)

It was similar in style to the team Mancini won the league with.
Dzeko and aguero up front
Silva and nasri behind as play makers
2 holding midfielders (de jong and barry)
Clichy, zabba, company and hart the same

It could be my memory playing tricks but didn't we largely stop playing Barry and De Jong as a pairing in that season leading to Nigel's eventual sale in the summer?

As for formations/team selections/diamonds/width no width or whatever if the 11 players you pick play with the tempo and zip of zombies out of the Walking Dead then you can count yourself lucky to get out of the game with a point. As Nasri said the team needs to wake the fuck up. This is the extent of my contribution on formations/tactics and whatnot. Basically I'm on TeamSamir.

 

[kenzie115]

re: team selection

(just playing devil's advocate)

It was similar in style to the team Mancini won the league with.
Dzeko and aguero up front
Silva and nasri behind as play makers
2 holding midfielders (de jong and barry)
Clichy, zabba, company and hart the same

It could be my memory playing tricks but didn't we largely stop playing Barry and De Jong as a pairing in that season leading to Nigel's eventual sale in the summer?

As for formations/team selections/diamonds/width no width or whatever if the 11 players you pick play with the tempo and zip of zombies out of the Walking Dead then you can count yourself lucky to get out of the game with a point. As Nasri said the team needs to wake the fuck up. This is the extent of my contribution on formations/tactics and whatnot. Basically I'm on TeamSamir.

Correct, 117 M34's post has completely ignored our most important player of that season, and of each season since he signed. Yaya Toure.

 

[franksinatra]

re: team selection

(just playing devil's advocate)

It was similar in style to the team Mancini won the league with.
Dzeko and aguero up front
Silva and nasri behind as play makers
2 holding midfielders (de jong and barry)
Clichy, zabba, company and hart the same

It could be my memory playing tricks but didn't we largely stop playing Barry and De Jong as a pairing in that season leading to Nigel's eventual sale in the summer?

As for formations/team selections/diamonds/width no width or whatever if the 11 players you pick play with the tempo and zip of zombies out of the Walking Dead then you can count yourself lucky to get out of the game with a point. As Nasri said the team needs to wake the fuck up. This is the extent of my contribution on formations/tactics and whatnot. Basically I'm on TeamSamir.

Course you are right as that is a team without Yaya which incredibly has not been included.

De jong was a bit part player that year because Barry was the perfect player to play the holding role. I lost count of the number of big matches where Barry would completely dominate the midfield, break up play and, when required, slow the tempo of the game by winning a cheap free kick or retaining possession with his underrated passing ability.

Sadly as yet we have still not replaced him. Barry had the premiership know how, ability to read the game neither fernando or fernandinho have displayed.

It is no coincidence over the last two years the 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 debate has raged, and the struggles of Yaya in a two discussed, which were rarely mentioned during Barrys tenure at the club. The midfield has never looked as solid since and similarly players like Nastasic, Kompany's form has never been the same and similarly Demi and now Mangala have been heavily criticised. Admittedly that is partly due to the individuals involved but also due to the openness of the midfield.