Maradona, truly the best player on this planet so far

[MCFC1993]

Having only been old enough to see Messi properly, i'd obviously say its him, ahead of 'the Ronaldo' and Zidane. (Not mentioning players before my age.

However there is a common point i'd like to mention between Maradona and Messi.

People say ah but Messi's never won a World Cup, well if he was in the Argentina team that Maradona was then he certainly would have, as that team from what i've read and seemed to have had the perfect balance. I mean look at the Argentina team in the last World Cup, they might as well have played 1-1-8 with the defence they had. I think Brazil 2014 you'll see an Argentina side ready to win it.

The 2nd argument is Maradona would have cleaned up in the current Barca side like Messi does and that I do not argue. However would he have stayed at the level Messi has done for so long? Would he have adapted his game the way Messi has? They are all stupid questions at the end of the day because we'll never know.

From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.

I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.

For me it would be:

Tier 1: Messi

Tier 2 (The greatest players bar Messi): Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane

Tier 3 (The Legends that were genius at their best, won title's, WPOY etc...): Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Ronaldinho, Garrincha, Baresi, Beckenbauer etc...

Tier 4 (Other Legends and today's top bunch)


Although this may sound daft, as a pair Xavi & Iniesta would top the pile! People will look back one day and realise just how good them two were. For Barcelona and Spain, them 2 created the tika-taka style under Pep and brought it to their national team.

 

[DaveRave18]

Champions League is of a higher quality than international football these days, so all this 'he needs to win a world cup' is nonsense IMO, has won CL finals against much tougher competition than any other national team.

Is that why England not won WC since 66? Cause its so easy?

 

[supercrystal7]

Having only been old enough to see Messi properly, i'd obviously say its him, ahead of 'the Ronaldo' and Zidane. (Not mentioning players before my age.

However there is a common point i'd like to mention between Maradona and Messi.

People say ah but Messi's never won a World Cup, well if he was in the Argentina team that Maradona was then he certainly would have, as that team from what i've read and seemed to have had the perfect balance. I mean look at the Argentina team in the last World Cup, they might as well have played 1-1-8 with the defence they had. I think Brazil 2014 you'll see an Argentina side ready to win it.

Poor excuse. Messi's Argentina team was much better than the Maradona one. Brazil won the world cup with Roque Junior playing out the back. Barcelona won the champions league with Mascherano. Their defense was not that bad. Their team was exceptionally strong on paper.

The 2nd argument is Maradona would have cleaned up in the current Barca side like Messi does and that I do not argue. However would he have stayed at the level Messi has done for so long? Would he have adapted his game the way Messi has? They are all stupid questions at the end of the day because we'll never know.

How has Messi adapted his game? He is playing the exact same system he has been playing in as a child. Xavi has always been the secret to Barcelona. Spain win everything and Argentina win nothing.

From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.

I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.

For me it would be:

Tier 1: Messi

Tier 2 (The greatest players bar Messi): Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane

Tier 3 (The Legends that were genius at their best, won title's, WPOY etc...): Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Ronaldinho, Garrincha, Baresi, Beckenbauer etc...

Tier 4 (Other Legends and today's top bunch)


Although this may sound daft, as a pair Xavi & Iniesta would top the pile! People will look back one day and realise just how good them two were. For Barcelona and Spain, them 2 created the tika-taka style under Pep and brought it to their national team.

No offense, but you admit to having not seen the other guys and then claim Messi is better than them? Have you any idea of what the other players achieved?

 

[DaveRave18]

For those talking about how Maradona used to get 'kicked to bits' I suggest you watch more of La Liga and see the treatment Messi gets subjected to, yet he never whines and moans and rolls around on the floor, he gets up and gets on with destroying the teams facing him.

Maradona was a great.

Messi is better.

Hmm .... Is he getting tackled like this?

<a class="postlink" href="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CaEbB78GLyA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CaEbB78GLyA</a>

 

[supercrystal7]

Champions League is of a higher quality than international football these days, so all this 'he needs to win a world cup' is nonsense IMO, has won CL finals against much tougher competition than any other national team.

Is that why England not won WC since 66? Cause its so easy?

In complete agreement. It is just a way for the SKY to try and make the CL to be the biggest tournament in football when it's obviously the world cup. Non football fans around the world watch the world cup. Non football fans did not even know the Champions League final was on. The other reason it is a way to glorify our players, because they have won the CL, but nothing internationally.

Bayern Munich destroyed everyone this year and Germany>Bayern Munich. That should show everyone the level of international football.

 

[MCFC1993]

Allowances can be made for certain players, but Messi plays for Argentina one of the strongest team in the world. He has no excuse on that part. It is a glaring failing and I don't see how people can defend it. He has not even taken Argentina to a final.

He's had 1 world cup (2006 doesn't count, he was 18 and coming off the bench for 10 minutes every game). Maradona didn't have a clue how to manage that team and they almost didn't even qualify he was that inept.

So because he was playing in a team managed by a buffoon and contained one of the worst defensive units I've ever seen (Jonas Gutierrez at full back anyone?), that means Messi should have an asterisk over his career? That's bollocks.

Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.

Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.

If trophies and awards are you argument, then lets compare Messi's domestic and personal achievement too...

World Cups: Maradona 1 Messi 0
League Titles: Messi 6 Maradona 2
Copa Americas (One of your points): Messi & Maradona 0
Champions Leagues: Messi 3 Maradona 0
Uefa Cup: Maradona 1, Messi (Never played in the competition)
World Club Cup: Messi 2 Maradona (Never played in the competition)

World Player of the Year: Messi 4 Maradona 0

Yes these stats been nothing in comparison, but me it puts to the bed the bollocks of not winning a world cup.

I mean FFS, does that make Kleberson better than Messi because he won a World Cup?Does it fuck.

-- Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am --

Having only been old enough to see Messi properly, i'd obviously say its him, ahead of 'the Ronaldo' and Zidane. (Not mentioning players before my age.

However there is a common point i'd like to mention between Maradona and Messi.

People say ah but Messi's never won a World Cup, well if he was in the Argentina team that Maradona was then he certainly would have, as that team from what i've read and seemed to have had the perfect balance. I mean look at the Argentina team in the last World Cup, they might as well have played 1-1-8 with the defence they had. I think Brazil 2014 you'll see an Argentina side ready to win it.

Poor excuse. Messi's Argentina team was much better than the Maradona one. Brazil won the world cup with Roque Junior playing out the back. Barcelona won the champions league with Mascherano. Their defense was not that bad. Their team was exceptionally strong on paper.

The 2nd argument is Maradona would have cleaned up in the current Barca side like Messi does and that I do not argue. However would he have stayed at the level Messi has done for so long? Would he have adapted his game the way Messi has? They are all stupid questions at the end of the day because we'll never know.

How has Messi adapted his game? He is playing the exact same system he has been playing in as a child. Xavi has always been the secret to Barcelona. Spain win everything and Argentina win nothing.

From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.

I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.

For me it would be:

Tier 1: Messi

Tier 2 (The greatest players bar Messi): Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane

Tier 3 (The Legends that were genius at their best, won title's, WPOY etc...): Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Ronaldinho, Garrincha, Baresi, Beckenbauer etc...

Tier 4 (Other Legends and today's top bunch)


Although this may sound daft, as a pair Xavi & Iniesta would top the pile! People will look back one day and realise just how good them two were. For Barcelona and Spain, them 2 created the tika-taka style under Pep and brought it to their national team.

No offense, but you admit to having not seen the other guys and then claim Messi is better than them? Have you any idea of what the other players achieved?

If you think Messi is playing in the same position and same style that he was when he was 17 then you are deluded. He was a rough diamond with pure potential when he started out but over the past 4/5 years he has been moulded into a powerhouse. Look at his goalscoring record and you'll see where he started to be moulded into the player he is now.

I've read more and watched more than most people I know on every player I mentioned. The age restriction of me not being able to see all these players live, restricts me to saying i'm only 99% certain Messi is the best player that has lived.

 

[MCFC1993]

For those talking about how Maradona used to get 'kicked to bits' I suggest you watch more of La Liga and see the treatment Messi gets subjected to, yet he never whines and moans and rolls around on the floor, he gets up and gets on with destroying the teams facing him.

Maradona was a great.

Messi is better.

Hmm .... Is he getting tackled like this?

<a class="postlink" href="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CaEbB78GLyA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CaEbB78GLyA</a>

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asq2vGsOHIU[/youtube]

0.39, 0.45, 0.58, 1.04, 2.00, 2.34 (Actually a stamp off the ball), 2.44, 3.30 (4 players go for him).

Football may be less dangerous than it use to, but Messi's had his fair share. Tbh i'm surprised that he hasn't suffered a more major injury.

Heres another showing how much he gets fouled and gets on with it:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwF3oxvh3DI[/youtube]

 

[supercrystal7]

He's had 1 world cup (2006 doesn't count, he was 18 and coming off the bench for 10 minutes every game). Maradona didn't have a clue how to manage that team and they almost didn't even qualify he was that inept.

So because he was playing in a team managed by a buffoon and contained one of the worst defensive units I've ever seen (Jonas Gutierrez at full back anyone?), that means Messi should have an asterisk over his career? That's bollocks.

Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.

Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.

If trophies and awards are you argument, then lets compare Messi's domestic and personal achievement too...

World Cups: Maradona 1 Messi 0
League Titles: Messi 6 Maradona 2
Copa Americas (One of your points): Messi & Maradona 0
Champions Leagues: Messi 3 Maradona 0
Uefa Cup: Maradona 1, Messi (Never played in the competition)
World Club Cup: Messi 2 Maradona (Never played in the competition)

World Player of the Year: Messi 4 Maradona 0

Yes these stats been nothing in comparison, but me it puts to the bed the bollocks of not winning a world cup.

I mean FFS, does that make Kleberson better than Messi because he won a World Cup?Does it fuck.

-- Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am --

Having only been old enough to see Messi properly, i'd obviously say its him, ahead of 'the Ronaldo' and Zidane. (Not mentioning players before my age.

However there is a common point i'd like to mention between Maradona and Messi.

People say ah but Messi's never won a World Cup, well if he was in the Argentina team that Maradona was then he certainly would have, as that team from what i've read and seemed to have had the perfect balance. I mean look at the Argentina team in the last World Cup, they might as well have played 1-1-8 with the defence they had. I think Brazil 2014 you'll see an Argentina side ready to win it.

Poor excuse. Messi's Argentina team was much better than the Maradona one. Brazil won the world cup with Roque Junior playing out the back. Barcelona won the champions league with Mascherano. Their defense was not that bad. Their team was exceptionally strong on paper.

The 2nd argument is Maradona would have cleaned up in the current Barca side like Messi does and that I do not argue. However would he have stayed at the level Messi has done for so long? Would he have adapted his game the way Messi has? They are all stupid questions at the end of the day because we'll never know.

How has Messi adapted his game? He is playing the exact same system he has been playing in as a child. Xavi has always been the secret to Barcelona. Spain win everything and Argentina win nothing.

From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.

I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.

For me it would be:

Tier 1: Messi

Tier 2 (The greatest players bar Messi): Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane

Tier 3 (The Legends that were genius at their best, won title's, WPOY etc...): Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Ronaldinho, Garrincha, Baresi, Beckenbauer etc...

Tier 4 (Other Legends and today's top bunch)


Although this may sound daft, as a pair Xavi & Iniesta would top the pile! People will look back one day and realise just how good them two were. For Barcelona and Spain, them 2 created the tika-taka style under Pep and brought it to their national team.

No offense, but you admit to having not seen the other guys and then claim Messi is better than them? Have you any idea of what the other players achieved?

If you think Messi is playing in the same position and same style that he was when he was 17 then you are deluded. He was a rough diamond with pure potential when he started out but over the past 4/5 years he has been moulded into a powerhouse. Look at his goalscoring record and you'll see where he started to be moulded into the player he is now.

I've read more and watched more than most people I know on every player I mentioned. The age restriction of me not being able to see all these players live, restricts me to saying i'm only 99% certain Messi is the best player that has lived.

Trophies are not my only indicator. It is being able to win on the biggest occasion or at least drag your team as close as possible. Ronaldo has completely outperformed Messi with weaker Portugal teams and sometimes worst managers.

Maradona played with much, much weaker teams than Messi. How about we compare Messi with other players, who played with top teams.

How about we look at Di Steffano's record or Beckenbauer or Zidane or Xavi or Ronaldinho?

I think when Messi became more focused on scoring goals only and had the Barcelona team built around him it made the team as a whole less effective. Pele at 17 was a no where near the player he would later become.

 

[conormcfc]

Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.

Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.

2006 counts? He played about an hours football in the entire tournament you tool!

Maradona never won a Copa America.

You miss the point. That 2010 side never had a chance because of how badly that team was managed. Jonas Gutierrez (a left midfielder that was playing for Newcastle in the Championship at the time) was played by Maradona at RIGHT BACK. He didn't have a clue and no team with a defence as badly set up/organized as that will ever challenge for a world cup.<br /><br />-- 28 May 2013, 06:10 --<br /><br />

This plus he took well average Napoli side and literally won the league on his own. Not much between them but Diego is the best player I have ever seen. Closely followed by Pavel Nedved, Messi, Ronaldo.

Literally. Yeah.

 

[supercrystal7]

Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.

Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.

2006 counts? He played about an hours football in the entire tournament you tool!

Maradona never won a Copa America.

You miss the point. That 2010 side never had a chance because of how badly that team was managed. Jonas Gutierrez (a left midfielder that was playing for Newcastle in the Championship at the time) was played by Maradona at RIGHT BACK. He didn't have a clue and no team with a defence as badly set up/organized as that will ever challenge for a world cup.

Yes and you are comparing him to a man, who at just 17 was winning the world cup. That is how ridiculous it is to win three world cups.

So what if Gutierrez was playing for a Championship side, he actually had a pretty decent season. Excuse after excuse is trotted out for Messi. Ronaldo played in even poorer organised Portugal teams and managed to get them further than Messi. Holland have bloody Heitinga playing at the back and challenged for the world cup.

It is not just about the defense letting them down. Messi scored no goals and was poor at the tournament. In the following Copa America he was even worse going out in the group stages as the host nation.

 

[MCFC1993]

Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.

Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.

If trophies and awards are you argument, then lets compare Messi's domestic and personal achievement too...

World Cups: Maradona 1 Messi 0
League Titles: Messi 6 Maradona 2
Copa Americas (One of your points): Messi & Maradona 0
Champions Leagues: Messi 3 Maradona 0
Uefa Cup: Maradona 1, Messi (Never played in the competition)
World Club Cup: Messi 2 Maradona (Never played in the competition)

World Player of the Year: Messi 4 Maradona 0

Yes these stats been nothing in comparison, but me it puts to the bed the bollocks of not winning a world cup.

I mean FFS, does that make Kleberson better than Messi because he won a World Cup?Does it fuck.

-- Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am --

Poor excuse. Messi's Argentina team was much better than the Maradona one. Brazil won the world cup with Roque Junior playing out the back. Barcelona won the champions league with Mascherano. Their defense was not that bad. Their team was exceptionally strong on paper.

How has Messi adapted his game? He is playing the exact same system he has been playing in as a child. Xavi has always been the secret to Barcelona. Spain win everything and Argentina win nothing.

From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.

I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.


No offense, but you admit to having not seen the other guys and then claim Messi is better than them? Have you any idea of what the other players achieved?

If you think Messi is playing in the same position and same style that he was when he was 17 then you are deluded. He was a rough diamond with pure potential when he started out but over the past 4/5 years he has been moulded into a powerhouse. Look at his goalscoring record and you'll see where he started to be moulded into the player he is now.

I've read more and watched more than most people I know on every player I mentioned. The age restriction of me not being able to see all these players live, restricts me to saying i'm only 99% certain Messi is the best player that has lived.

Trophies are not my only indicator. It is being able to win on the biggest occasion or at least drag your team as close as possible. Ronaldo has completely outperformed Messi with weaker Portugal teams and sometimes worst managers.

Maradona played with much, much weaker teams than Messi. How about we compare Messi with other players, who played with top teams.

How about we look at Di Steffano's record or Beckenbauer or Zidane or Xavi or Ronaldinho?

I think when Messi became more focused on scoring goals only and had the Barcelona team built around him it made the team as a whole less effective. Pele at 17 was a no where near the player he would later become.

The trophies aren't an important factor necessarily, you was the one mentioning World Cups won.

You could argue that the Barcelona team at the moment would be a much weaker team if it wasn't for Messi though. I'm also fairly certain Maradona wasn't playing in a shit Napoli side which won the league, they were in a bad patch admittedly but Napoli side was not weak!

 

[conormcfc]

Yes and you are comparing him to a man, who at just 17 was winning the world cup. That is how ridiculous it is to win three world cups.

So what if Gutierrez was playing for a Championship side, he actually had a pretty decent season. Excuse after excuse is trotted out for Messi. Ronaldo played in even poorer organised Portugal teams and managed to get them further than Messi. Holland have bloody Heitinga playing at the back and challenged for the world cup.

It is not just about the defense letting them down. Messi scored no goals and was poor at the tournament. In the following Copa America he was even worse going out in the group stages as the host nation.

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?

I'm not comparing him to Pele for a start, so I don't know why you're bringing him up.

What did you want Messi to do in '06 exactly? As I've said, he played about an hours football in the entire tournament, bit different to Pele and Ronaldo starting every game.

Are you actually saying there was nothing wrong with playing a left winger at right back at the world cup? Again, I'm not sure if you're actually reading before posting.

C.Ronaldo has not played in worse organized teams that that Argentina team, not even close. You're talking nonsense.

 

[supercrystal7]

Yes and you are comparing him to a man, who at just 17 was winning the world cup. That is how ridiculous it is to win three world cups.

So what if Gutierrez was playing for a Championship side, he actually had a pretty decent season. Excuse after excuse is trotted out for Messi. Ronaldo played in even poorer organised Portugal teams and managed to get them further than Messi. Holland have bloody Heitinga playing at the back and challenged for the world cup.

It is not just about the defense letting them down. Messi scored no goals and was poor at the tournament. In the following Copa America he was even worse going out in the group stages as the host nation.

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?

I'm not comparing him to Pele for a start, so I don't know why you're bringing him up.

What did you want Messi to do in '06 exactly? As I've said, he played about an hours football in the entire tournament, bit different to Pele and Ronaldo starting every game.

Are you actually saying there was nothing wrong with playing a left winger at right back at the world cup? Again, I'm not sure if you're actually reading before posting.

C.Ronaldo has not played in worse organized teams that that Argentina team, not even close. You're talking nonsense.

It was a general comment to the MANY, MANY posters calling him the best ever.

I don't expect anything for an 18 year old at that level. However, when you call Messi the best every you have to take a look at what other people arguing for the title were doing. There is a reason Messi only played an hour, whilst Pele and Ronaldo played every game taking their teams to the final/trophy.

Have you actually seen Portugal under Queiroz? Portugal had some terrible organisation and selections. I am not even asking Messi to win an international, just an international career comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo would be a start, but he falls woefully short.

Gutierrez at right back is a very bad move and he actually got dropped for later games. However, I will bring up the team to remind you of the talent it had.

Romero

Gutierrez Demichellis Samuel Heinze

Veron Mascherano Di Maria

Tevez Milito Messi

Not the best organised team, but they should have been capable of destroying teams on the attack. If they were conceding 4 but scoring 3 then you might have a point. Messi scored no goals.

Then how about the Copa America where as Host they went out in the group stages? Sorry what excuse do you have this time?

 

[conormcfc]

I don't expect anything for an 18 year old at that level. However, when you call Messi the best every you have to take a look at what other people arguing for the title were doing. There is a reason Messi only played an hour, whilst Pele and Ronaldo played every game taking their teams to the final/trophy.

Have you actually seen Portugal under Queiroz? Portugal had some terrible organisation and selections. I am not even asking Messi to win an international, just an international career comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo would be a start, but he falls woefully short.

Gutierrez at right back is a very bad move and he actually got dropped for later games. However, I will bring up the team to remind you of the talent it had.

Romero

Gutierrez Demichellis Samuel Heinze

Veron Mascherano Di Maria

Tevez Milito Messi

Not the best organised team, but they should have been capable of destroying teams on the attack. If they were conceding 4 but scoring 3 then you might have a point. Messi scored no goals.

Then how about the Copa America where as Host they went out in the group stages? Sorry what excuse do you have this time?

Yeah, they were further in their development at the time. What point are you making? Maradona who you've been going on about didn't play in a world cup till the age of 22 so let's not get off topic.

Fucking hell, you're comparing the organization of Queiroz's Portugal side that conceded 1 goal in an entire world cup (to Spain no less) to Maradona's Argentina. Get a grip mate.

As a manager Maradona wasn't fit to manage a pub team. Does looking at that Argentina team not tell you everything about how badly set up it was to beat top teams? Di Maria is playing centre mid for God's sake! It's clear as day to anyone that any decent side would rip them apart. Bolivia beat them about 7-0 in qualifying ffs.

They didn't go out in the group stage of the Copa America, they got knocked out on pens by Uruguay in the quarters.

 

[supercrystal7]

I don't expect anything for an 18 year old at that level. However, when you call Messi the best every you have to take a look at what other people arguing for the title were doing. There is a reason Messi only played an hour, whilst Pele and Ronaldo played every game taking their teams to the final/trophy.

Have you actually seen Portugal under Queiroz? Portugal had some terrible organisation and selections. I am not even asking Messi to win an international, just an international career comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo would be a start, but he falls woefully short.

Gutierrez at right back is a very bad move and he actually got dropped for later games. However, I will bring up the team to remind you of the talent it had.

Romero

Gutierrez Demichellis Samuel Heinze

Veron Mascherano Di Maria

Tevez Milito Messi

Not the best organised team, but they should have been capable of destroying teams on the attack. If they were conceding 4 but scoring 3 then you might have a point. Messi scored no goals.

Then how about the Copa America where as Host they went out in the group stages? Sorry what excuse do you have this time?

Yeah, they were further in their development at the time. What point are you making? Maradona who you've been going on about didn't play in a world cup till the age of 22 so let's not get off topic.

Fucking hell, you're comparing the organization of Queiroz's Portugal side that conceded 1 goal in an entire world cup (to Spain no less) to Maradona's Argentina. Get a grip mate.

As a manager Maradona wasn't fit to manage a pub team. Does looking at that Argentina team not tell you everything about how badly set up it was to beat top teams? Di Maria is playing centre mid for God's sake! It's clear as day to anyone that any decent side would rip them apart. Bolivia beat them about 7-0 in qualifying ffs.

They didn't go out in the group stage of the Copa America, they got knocked out on pens by Uruguay in the quarters.

Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.

Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.

Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.

 

[conormcfc]

Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.

Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.

Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.

They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.

Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.

Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.

 

[mancity25]

I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.

So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.

 

[supercrystal7]

Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.

Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.

Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.

They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.

Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.

Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.

No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.
Quierroz is currently in Iran I think, which says a lot.

Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.

Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.<br /><br />-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --<br /><br />

I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.

So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.

I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.

 

[MCFC1993]

Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.

Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.

Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.

They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.

Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.

Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.

No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.
Quierroz is currently in Iran I think, which says a lot.

Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.

Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.

-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --

I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.

So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.

I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.

To be honest i'd argue that Bayern are better than Germany.

I also agree that the CL is a better standard of football. In the champions league least all the best players play or have the chance to play in that competition.

 

[supercrystal7]

They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.

Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.

Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.

No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.
Quierroz is currently in Iran I think, which says a lot.

Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.

Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.

-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --

I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.

So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.

I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.

To be honest i'd argue that Bayern are better than Germany.

I also agree that the CL is a better standard of football. In the champions league least all the best players play or have the chance to play in that competition.

Why would you argue Bayern are better than Germany and even if you make the argument, the gap cannot be so large. Considering Bayern destroyed everyone this year, that should put into context the quality of international teams.

The German team can throw in Ozil, Hummels, Reus, Gundogan and Gotze. Only in Alaba are they lacking. Even Gomez is a better player than Mandzukic, by a fair bit, but just does not suit the system. If he leaves Bayern this year expect him to hit over 30 goals next season barring injury.

Even you would not agrue Italy are a lot better than Juventus, Spain probably better than Barca and France close to PSG.

How do all the best players have a chance to play in the Champions League? Was Falcao there? Was Bale there? Was De Rossi there etc.