March for the Alternative-26th March

[Soulboy]

I always smile at these "there are far too many managers in the NHS" views that people have.

The Tories answer is that they do away with a whole layer of unnecessary management and concentrate the monies on front-line care (and who wouldn't be in favour of that?)...

So they hand the budget responsibility direct to the Doctors and Practices up and down the country, and require them to "purchase" the services as they see fit... even though many doctors do not want this responsibility, and even many more do not have the expertise or knowledge to do this job.

So you know exactly what the first thing they'll do once they get hold of the budget? They'll appoint a manager to run the service, so allowing them to concentrate on medical issues!

Instead of having the economies of scale of having Regional or area based managers undertaking the duties, instead we'll have local Practices all appointing their own versions.

Economics of the mad house. There is a reason for bureaucracy. It isn't just a cliche for inefficiency... otherwise Henry Ford wouldn't have been such a proponent!

You do realise that all GP's practices already employ practice managers don't you. They would, in reality be the ones that take on the responsibility.

Ah, so Practice Managers do the same job as those at the Trusts and Regional?

If that's the case, then you'd have thought by now the NHS would have sussed they are employing thousands of people at that level for no reason at all. And that even the MP's would have known this by now.

They could even have used it as a real vote winner, no doubt!

But, surprisingly, they kept it oh, so quiet...

 

[metalblue]

When I say "managers" I was refering (badly) to the whole back-office.

To a layman (such as me) I see the NHS currently spending around £2.6bn on back office pay alone (I will ignore the money they seem to "waste" - such as £300mio on management consultants). The NHS admits they can trim this pay by £600mio...(that's about 20,000 nurses). How will they save this money? you guessed it by improving economies of scale (makes you ask the question what the f**k have they been doing these past 10 years?).

Just out of interest... the £300m wasted on consultants... can you tell me how better the NHS should have spent that money?

Do you actually know what the consultants do, or are you just following the party line that it "must" be waste as the Daily Mail says it's so!

And what have been doing the past 20 years? Can I offer an option? They might very well have been saving of millions of pounds in better treatment, new treatment, better care... the usual stuff?

It's a bit like saying why are Stockport County in financial crisis? Can't they just do what they did ten years ago? How did they fuck it up so bad...?

Or if someone is made redundant, they sufddenly find that they don't need the car, or the bigger house, or the holidays abroad. So they trim their cloth to suit the current cliumate. That's all the NHS are having to do... it doesn't mean they were "wasting" the money they can now save!

Surely the consultants that establish better/new treatment etc would not be "management" consultants? Anyways this money was "spent" on things like advising on pfi and increasing competition in the health service...the mail? no mate...'twas the RCN (a body I would consider to be better qualified to opine on these matters than I) who said "these figures are utterly shocking when you consider the difference that this money could have made to patients".

Nonetheless you are correct in your asertion that this money has "long gone" and we can't get it back, I wasn't even proposing that was possible...however the blasé attitude to how tax payers money is and has been used is somewhat at the heart of the problems the public sector now faces.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

WOW what a legend!!

Take the mick all you like, but while some of us were out on the streets doing something we believe in: protesting about a rotten government with no mandate to govern what were you doing that was so worthwhile? Lounging around at home with your finger up your arse?

Not taking the mick out of the march. Happily we live in a country where you have the right to a PEACEFUL protest. His post was not really about that. Worthwhile mate, i was at work making money to pay bills and enjoy a good life without crying about these cuts that seem to have fixated your life. You do talk some drivel

 

[Soulboy]

Just out of interest... the £300m wasted on consultants... can you tell me how better the NHS should have spent that money?

Do you actually know what the consultants do, or are you just following the party line that it "must" be waste as the Daily Mail says it's so!

And what have been doing the past 20 years? Can I offer an option? They might very well have been saving of millions of pounds in better treatment, new treatment, better care... the usual stuff?

It's a bit like saying why are Stockport County in financial crisis? Can't they just do what they did ten years ago? How did they fuck it up so bad...?

Or if someone is made redundant, they sufddenly find that they don't need the car, or the bigger house, or the holidays abroad. So they trim their cloth to suit the current cliumate. That's all the NHS are having to do... it doesn't mean they were "wasting" the money they can now save!

Surely the consultants that establish better/new treatment etc would not be "management" consultants? Anyways this money was "spent" on things like advising on pfi and increasing competition in the health service...the mail? no mate...'twas the RCN (a body I would consider to be better qualified to opine on these matters than I) who said "these figures are utterly shocking when you consider the difference that this money could have made to patients".

Nonetheless you are correct in your asertion that this money has "long gone" and we can't get it back, I wasn't even proposing that was possible...however the blasé attitude to how tax payers money is and has been used is somewhat at the heart of the problems the public sector now faces.

The RCN have their own agenda... so my opinion and their's do not have to clash.

It's a bit like the "workers" pointing fingers at the waste of management... without really understanding what management actually do.

I like your point about consultants advising on PFI... seeing as that is Government-driven and the way in which hospitals are now built! In effect, they are being appointed to give advice on a procedure that no-one in Hospitals is qualified to give advice on... or would it be preferable they kept this work in-house and gave it to a Nurse to do!

Is there waste? Of course there is. If the Government built hospitals rather than getting it funded via PFI then they wouldn't need all the consultants.

And isn't "competition" a good thing? Isn't it the most effective form of control over any service? And you're suggesting hospitals are wasting money doing it!

Maybe the hospitals just don't have people employed that currently do that, and rather than employing people on a permanent basis they just use temporary consultants... like just about every private organisation in the world would do.

 

[ElanJo]

Capatilsiam only works for the Rich it has done sfa for me

That's about as ignorant as it gets.

Sorry, but socialism is the only way that a true and just society can operate.
The free market economy and free enterprise was given a chance, and got us into this mess.
there is an alternative, there is a better fairer way.
From each by their means, to each by their needs.

Yea, not so much...

 

[Skashion]

Yea, not so much...

I'd like to see the data that graph was sourced from.

 

[ElanJo]

Yea, not so much...

I'd like to see the data that graph was sourced from.

Here you go <a class="postlink" href="http://data.worldbank.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://data.worldbank.org/</a>
<a class="postlink" href="http://siteresources.worldbank.org/EXTANNREP2010/Resources/7074178-1285788609189/finance0401_income_povests.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://siteresources.worldbank.org/EXTA ... ovests.pdf</a>

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yea, not so much...

I'd like to see the data that graph was sourced from.

Whether you like capitalism or not it is undeniable that living standards in real terms have increased for everyone in society post WW2 irrespective of social status.

When my dad was growing up in Hulme in the 30's and 40's only two people in the whole area had a car. The owners of the local cinema and chippy.

That is why the whole rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is a slight misnomer. It should in fact be the rich getting more rich than the poor.

Although there will always be inequalities in any society I think the ones that are currently the case are unacceptable and undesirable for everyone. That said I am at a loss as to how to address it. 13 years of New Labour didn't that's for sure.

 

[kronkonite]

you're clueless totally clueless

it may produce but it does not distribute


<a class="postlink" href="http://www.buynothingday.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.buynothingday.co.uk/</a>

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

you're clueless totally clueless

it may produce but it does not distribute


<a class="postlink" href="http://www.buynothingday.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.buynothingday.co.uk/</a>

Ah yes the Chrysler Building. So symbolic of a nation that has gone from being a feudal imperial outpost to the richest nation in human history. Because of.....capitalism.