Middle East Conflict (merged) | Iran launch missile attack after Israel invade Lebanon

[inbetween]

What's the excuse for the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge and where this round of the conflict was initiated?
...
Editing this to be a bit less blunt, I mean to say that ultimately the responsibility for changing the situation lies more heavily on the shoulders of the occupying power. I remember arguing with David Simon the Wire creator oddly enough (on twitter, not like I met him in person), and he said that you couldn’t compare Israel/Palestine to apartheid South Africa because there was no Palestinian Mandela with which the Israeli state could make a deal for peace. As I said to him, the conclusion that ultimately flows from that position is that if Mandela had died in prison in 1985 say, he’d be defending apartheid to this day. That’s an untenable and morally indefensive position to be in, in my view. The analogy I’m making is not to say that Israel = Apartheid, a debate I don’t think we need to get in to, but just that if there are steps Israel should be taking towards peace and justice, then those are the right steps to be taking - full stop.

There is no excuse, I'm not excusing anything either party do but this conflict does not involve any innocent party.

On peace, a sizeable majority of Palestinians support one thing and one thing only which is the return of all Palestinian land and that can only mean the end of Israel. Some states supporting Palestine do not even recognise the existence of Israel and always rejected the partition many years ago.

You cannot reconcile that into Israel stopping hostilities and accepting that a few rockets will kill a few Israelis every now and then. Israel should not violate international law but the whole idea that Israel should stop what it's doing, return to old lines and then there will be peace, it's just fantasy.

Either way nothing is going to change, it's a stalemate based upon the almost pointless demands of one party and the obvious unlawful behaviour supported by the west in the other. This isn't a military war, it's a fight for land.

Thinking of Mandela, what is wanted is a million miles away from what Mandela fought for and let's not pretend that even Palestinians want this. Are we going to see a single Israeli/Palestinian state where Muslims and Jewish people can live together anytime soon? Not a chance in hell.

This whole thing isn't as simple as one side wants to live in peace but the other keeps nicking land and so the Palestinians retaliate but then the other fires laser guided bombs back.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I suppose the real issue is with the Balfour declaration and the attitudes of Western powers to the Arabs which we pretty much treated like the early settlers did the native Americans. We needed to assuage our guilt over centuries of persecution of the European Jews by establishing a Jewish state. I don't dispute the historical / religious claim to establish this state, but in terms of regional diplomacy the establishment of Israel was akin to refitting Mary D's as a Utd megastore.
Not sure if there is / was a better solution, but it's little wonder that after being plonked down in the middle of a contested region of largely resentful and religiously / ethnically different folks that the Israelis develop a bunker mentality and take 'defense' to the point of war.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I suppose the real issue is with the Balfour declaration and the attitudes of Western powers to the Arabs which we pretty much treated like the early settlers did the native Americans. We needed to assuage our guilt over centuries of persecution of the European Jews by establishing a Jewish state. I don't dispute the historical / religious claim to establish this state, but in terms of regional diplomacy the establishment of Israel was akin to refitting Mary D's as a Utd megastore.
Not sure if there is / was a better solution, but it's little wonder that after being plonked down in the middle of a contested region of largely resentful and religiously / ethnically different folks that the Israelis develop a bunker mentality and take 'defense' to the point of war.

Again, someone is using language that suggests that boatloads of Jews were sent to the area for historic reasons. There always was a Jewish presence, even under the Ottomans. Most of the Arab landowners lived in Cairo, Beirut or Damascus. The Arabs got the overwhelming majority of the territory taken from the Ottoman Empire, which is of course right. But you had a Saudi tribal chief being given the kingship of Iraq or Syria, which is nonsense. Just one small bit was meant to be part of a Jewish homeland (not state).

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Again, someone is using language that suggests that boatloads of Jews were sent to the area for historic reasons. There always was a Jewish presence, even under the Ottomans. Most of the Arab landowners lived in Cairo, Beirut or Damascus. The Arabs got the overwhelming majority of the territory taken from the Ottoman Empire, which is of course right. But you had a Saudi tribal chief being given the kingship of Iraq or Syria, which is nonsense. Just one small bit was meant to be part of a Jewish homeland (not state).

Absolutely, and I hope I don't come across as not respecting the equivalent historic right of Jewish people to be there - not my intention. The difficulty of that corner of the world, Jerusalem, Turkey etc as I understand it it that all the Abrahamic based faiths can claim to have roots and an entitlement. No easy solutions sadly.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Absolutely, and I hope I don't come across as not respecting the equivalent historic right of Jewish people to be there - not my intention. The difficulty of that corner of the world, Jerusalem, Turkey etc as I understand it it that all the Abrahamic based faiths can claim to have roots and an entitlement. No easy solutions sadly.

And you're right that the colonial powers were very cynical in the post WW1 era. The book 'A Line In The Sand' is currently on sale on Kindle for 99p and tells how there were at least 3 different schemes being pursued for what to do about carving up the Middle East, all of which were deeply cynical.

There's even a view that the British Government were supportive of the Balfour Declaration because they saw it as a way to potentially rid themselves of these recently arrived Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. If you think the language of people like Farage and papers like the Mail is bad now, you should have seen it in the early 20th Century when talking about those Jewish migrants.

Incidentally, the site where the CFA now is, which was Clayton Aniline, played a big role in the Balfour Declaration as the owner of CA introduced Arthur Balfour to the Zionist Movement's leader Chaim Weizmann.

 

[metalblue]

And you're right that the colonial powers were very cynical in the post WW1 era. The book 'A Line In The Sand' is currently on sale on Kindle for 99p and tells how there were at least 3 different schemes being pursued for what to do about carving up the Middle East, all of which were deeply cynical.

There's even a view that the British Government were supportive of the Balfour Declaration because they saw it as a way to potentially rid themselves of these recently arrived Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. If you think the language of people like Farage and papers like the Mail is bad now, you should have seen it in the early 20th Century when talking about those Jewish migrants.

Incidentally, the site where the CFA now is, which was Clayton Aniline, played a big role in the Balfour Declaration as the owner of CA introduced Arthur Balfour to the Zionist Movement's leader Chaim Weizmann.

All against a backdrop of Jewish acts of terrorism against the British. The trouble with looking back and saying it’s their fault is someone can always go back further.

They need to start looking forwards and leave the past where it belongs.

 

[The blue phantom]

All against a backdrop of Jewish acts of terrorism against the British. The trouble with looking back and saying it’s their fault is someone can always go back further.

They need to start looking forwards and leave the past where it belongs.

I think that's what the current situation is about with further house evictions and land grab.

 

[Magicpole]

One thing you can't accuse the Israelis of is indiscriminate bombing. Every missile strike is very carefully targeted. You could potentially accuse them of not doing enough to avoid non-combatants being killed but that's another story and depends on what is deemed to be the appropriate amount of care taken.

Maybe because they have state of the art armaments . If Hamas has the same, they would target the Israeli leaders too. It's like a medieval army facing Desert Storm. They start the fight by a crackdown, land grab, going into a Mosque. Hamas reacts and this allows Israel to csrry out surgical strikes to weaken leadership and destroy strategic centres in the name of having a right to defend themselves. Israel creates the tension then reacts as if they were all just sitting about smoking weed and being hippies. It's well thought out and Netan The Yahoo to consolidate his precarious political position by diversion. Oldest trick in the book from aggressors playing the victim card. As 8ve saud before, I fully accept Israel's right to exist, but not the apartheid and strangling of the Palestinian economy that means groups like Hamas are seen as protectors. They in turn exploit this to further their sworn objective to destroy Israel. And so the circle continues. Forever.

 

[west didsblue]

Maybe because they have state of the art armaments . If Hamas has the same, they would target the Israeli leaders too. It's like a medieval army facing Desert Storm. They start the fight by a crackdown, land grab, going into a Mosque. Hamas reacts and this allows Israel to csrry out surgical strikes to weaken leadership and destroy strategic centres in the name of having a right to defend themselves. Israel creates the tension then reacts as if they were all just sitting about smoking weed and being hippies. It's well thought out and Netan The Yahoo to consolidate his precarious political position by diversion. Oldest trick in the book from aggressors playing the victim card. As 8ve saud before, I fully accept Israel's right to exist, but not the apartheid and strangling of the Palestinian economy that means groups like Hamas are seen as protectors. They in turn exploit this to further their sworn objective to destroy Israel. And so the circle continues. Forever.

Yep. Pretty much.

Netanyahu is a **** and it serves his purposes to keep the Israeli population fearful so they’ll keep voting for him which is against everyone’s best interests apart from the extremists on both sides who only want to kill each other. As a supporter of Israel but not their government it makes me very sad.

 

[inbetween]

Yep. Pretty much.

Netanyahu is a **** and it serves his purposes to keep the Israeli population fearful so they’ll keep voting for him which is against everyone’s best interests apart from the extremists on both sides who only want to kill each other. As a supporter of Israel but not their government it makes me very sad.

Not that many people are voting for him, the progressive parties are doing well in Israel or at least well enough to keep him from outright power. He's also facing corruption charges which may well see him booted out anyway.

In any event, who is in charge in Israel isn't going to change anything. Someone different may call a ceasefire but that still isn't acceptable to Palestinians or their supporters like Egypt given they consider the existence of Israel as obscene. The Arab League has shown signs of relenting like the UAE for example now has ties with Israel but my guess is they aren't showing neutrality, they just aren't arsed anymore.

Another major problem for peace talks is the US is an important mediator but thanks to Trump they can no longer be a neutral party. I'd expect Biden to maybe change this policy but who knows, he just comes across as bollockless to me and he'll avoid the issue as much as possible for 5 years so expect nothing there.