Middle East Conflict (merged) | Iran launch missile attack after Israel invade Lebanon

[Tugay One Cup]

The point I keep trying to make is that painting one side as 100% right, and the other as 100% wrong, is 100% wrong.

I'm not sure anyone of sound mind would argue otherwise.

The problem is that it's hard to argue that there's a 50/50 split when the casualties are anything but.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I never denied that. A shit show that will never be resolved fully, but better contained if the Palestinians are helped economically to develop a viable state. Even then, the parties of God will never let it go, but a diminishing of their power can be achieved if the people's lives improve. That's why I support the two state model and an end to ever expanding Jewish settlements by their crazies.

On that we agree. I've argued on here that the path to peace involves economic measures to better the lot of the Palestinians. But they have to give something back for that, which is a guarantee of peaceful co-existence.

The settlements are the most difficult physical issue to resolve. The suggested answer is to keep the ones closest to the pre-1967 lines, get rid of the others and do some sort of land swap. But while the Israeli political leadership relies on the support of the Settler movement, that will be difficult.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I'm not sure anyone of sound mind would argue otherwise.

The problem is that it's hard to argue that there's a 50/50 split when the casualties are anything but.

I wouldn't even try to quantify blame but the point is, as you obviously appreciate, that it is often framed in a very simplistic, black and-white way.

 

[Magicpole]

On that we agree. I've argued on here that the path to peace involves economic measures to better the lot of the Palestinians. But they have to give something back for that, which is a guarantee of peaceful co-existence.

The settlements are the most difficult physical issue to resolve. The suggested answer is to keep the ones closest to the pre-1967 lines, get rid of the others and do some sort of land swap. But while the Israeli political leadership relies on the support of the Settler movement, that will be difficult.

Even if 90% of the Palestinian people accepted it after economic improvements, there will still be those who won't. The targeting of those types, rather than indiscriminate bombing, would and should be the way to deal with them. Although, attacks will continue in the same way we have them in Europe. That's just an unfortunate fact.

 

[west didsblue]

Even if 90% of the Palestinian people accepted it after economic improvements, there will still be those who won't. The targeting of those types, rather than indiscriminate bombing, would and should be the way to deal with them. Although, attacks will continue in the same way we have them in Europe. That's just an unfortunate fact.

One thing you can't accuse the Israelis of is indiscriminate bombing. Every missile strike is very carefully targeted. You could potentially accuse them of not doing enough to avoid non-combatants being killed but that's another story and depends on what is deemed to be the appropriate amount of care taken.

 

[inbetween]

Even if 90% of the Palestinian people accepted it after economic improvements, there will still be those who won't. The targeting of those types, rather than indiscriminate bombing, would and should be the way to deal with them. Although, attacks will continue in the same way we have them in Europe. That's just an unfortunate fact.

Hamas use the classic urban militia way of terrorist violence, hide amongst civilians and act as an aggressor but then blame the opposite aggressor for civilian deaths. ISIS were known for doing the exact same thing. Israel is able to target very carefully and warn when attacks are coming but it isn't always that easy.

We can improve and help Palestinians but it remains pointless whilst a terrorist organisation is in charge, the same goes for the extremists behind Netanyahu but let's not forget that he doesn't even have a majority stake in the Israeli government. The centrist and progressive movement in Israel is growing and is now able to keep Netanyahu from power, one of their aims is to bring forward peace negotiations with Palestine.

As has been said, Israel should not be regarded as united as one behind this mess and the country is very split over how to move forward. Obviously though the destruction of the Israeli state is not on anyone's agenda (except Hamas...).

 

[The blue phantom]

One thing you can't accuse the Israelis of is indiscriminate bombing. Every missile strike is very carefully targeted.

Is the evidence of that coming from the Israeli government?

 

[west didsblue]

Is the evidence of that coming from the Israeli government?

The evidence is fairly clear in that, for example, a specific building was targeted and the residents were given advance warning to evacuate. I'm not saying it's right but it's the opposite of indiscriminate.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

I wouldn't even try to quantify blame but the point is, as you obviously appreciate, that it is often framed in a very simplistic, black and-white way.

Personally, I struggle to see how the majority of the blame for the current situation doesn't fall at the feet of Israel.

I think it's right to point to the events of 73 years ago (and beyond) in order to contextualise what is happening today because this conflict wasn't created in a vacuum.

However, when one side has one of the most powerful militaries on the planet which has claimed the lives of more children then they have suffered as a whole, who gladly open fire on and kill medical staff providing aid to injured civilians, continues to seize lands which don't belong to them, willfully ignores the hypocrisy of maintaining apartheid, has long term elected government officials continuing to use extremist rhetoric to dehumanise the Palestinian people, has citizens who pull out deckchairs to watch and cheer airstrikes on Palestinian soil and ultimately denies human beings their basic human rights, you have to put aside the history lesson for a minute and accept that there will be an incredible amount of anger and outrage from a worldwide audience who don't necessarily have the inclination or duty to qualify their statements with "I'm not saying Hamas are blameless but.."

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Been going on for thousands of years, back to biblical times, and it looks like it isn’t going to end anytime soon with far right factions running each territory.

Shameful what they are allowing to happen and fuck all to do with religion.