Middle East Conflict (merged)

[Prestwich_Blue]

That's the key word then would you admit? since you used it, "controlled".

I assume when you say Ottoman you mean the first map.
It's true that the Ottoman had control over the lands, but ownership were still Arab Palestinians, and the Ottomans themselves called the land Palestine.

During Ottoman's control and after, the UNCCP held records of more than 530,000 land ownership documents for Arab Palestinians. I mentioned this in my previous post. Although you may want to insist the first map being a blank canvas of Ottoman Empire, the evidence and documents are there that

1. The lands the Ottoman controlled were individually assigned before during and after their control to more than 530,000 Arab Palestinians.

2. The Ottoman refer to the land as Palestine. In fact, the history of the land based on ancient maps from Ptolemy to Herodotus, Ovid to Avicenna, and commentaries from Einstein to Avi Shlaim refers to the land pre 1948 as Palestine.

Thus, Not only map 1 shows Palestine as the name of the country, but also shows the background of its landowners. They are not mostly absentee landlords as established in its inquest. They are mostly owned by Arab Palestinians.

On the Jordanian and Egyptian controlled lands. Egypt never annexed Gaza, it only went under military control. Militarry occupation, in international law, is defined by a temporary control of power without any claim for permanent sovereignty. This, the land may be controlled by Egypt, ownership is still Palestinian. An excellent case is Indonesia's control over Timor Timur. The Indonesians didn't annex the country but simply rule it by military power. It's lands were still owned by Timorese, and upon relinquish of control Timor Leste, the independent state was born, complete with its Timorese owned lands that never could exchange hands.

Jordan did annex West Bank and in doing so had sovereign rights. However, this sovereign rights was only recognised by Pakistan and the United Kingdom. Furthermore, Jordan was itself a new nation and 70% of its populations are Palestinian by reference. The West Bank is Palestine before, Palestinian during and Palestine after.

Finally, on your assertions of handing over occupied land back to Palestine. You do know that the UNSC and US State Department both do not recognise these occupied lands as owned or controlled by Israel, right? Because they are - as words used by these agencies - illegal, a flagrant violation of international laws as well as a violation of the Geneva Convention, and not to mention based on commentaries of prominent individuals as human rights violations and a possible war crime, making this token gesture a moot point.

These have genuinely been very interesting posts but overlook one key factor that renders them pretty irrelevant. The UN agreed a partition plan in 1947. The Arabs refused to accept it and attacked the newly formed Israeli state once they declared statehood. As a result of that war, they lost areas that were assigned to them in the UN plan. In 1949 there was an armistice that set the borders of what we now know as pre-1967 Israel. So whatever went before, whoever owned what field or village, those borders are a fact on the ground and internationally recognised, regardless of whether you think the partition plan was right or wrong. As SWP's Back said, many borders have been shaped by wars, conflicts and resultant treaties.

As part of any settlement you would hope that anyone who can prove ownership of land in pre-1967 Israel will be paid compensation for that, n the same way that people who lost property in the Final Solution have been compensated upon providing appropriate proof. One would also hope that there would be a reciprocal arrangement by which those Jews who were forced to leave Arab or North African countries and leave much of their property behind would also be compensated.

 

[whp.blue]

I honestly believe that anyone that attacks Israel knows what the response will be.
Israel have always hit back harder and more effectively.
They have been attacked by all of their neighbours at some point and have built up their military accordingly.
My only surprise is that people still attack them.

 

[west didsblue]

Oh please, they are little more than glorified fireworks an you know it, just how many fatalities have Israel "Endured" from the total number used in all the years its been occupying ?, you condone the use of bombs and missiles in densely populated area`s, any one of which has killed far more that that total, as Israel "Defending its self".

Without the yanks blocking Israel would have been sanctioned out of existence a long time ago.

Israel doesn't occupy Southern Lebanon.
Maybe you're getting Hezbollah and Hamas mixed up because if you think the Hezbollah missiles are glorified fireworks you're deluded.
They have dozens of different types including rockets with up to 300km range that can carry 500kg warheads.
The only time I have condoned the use of missiles by Israel is the targeted response to attacks which I assume you believe they should ignore.

 

[cucumberman]

These have genuinely been very interesting posts but overlook one key factor that renders them pretty irrelevant. The UN agreed a partition plan in 1947. The Arabs refused to accept it and attacked the newly formed Israeli state once they declared statehood. As a result of that war, they lost areas that were assigned to them in the UN plan. In 1949 there was an armistice that set the borders of what we now know as pre-1967 Israel. So whatever went before, whoever owned what field or village, those borders are a fact on the ground and internationally recognised, regardless of whether you think the partition plan was right or wrong. As SWP's Back said, many borders have been shaped by wars, conflicts and resultant treaties.

As part of any settlement you would hope that anyone who can prove ownership of land in pre-1967 Israel will be paid compensation for that, n the same way that people who lost property in the Final Solution have been compensated upon providing appropriate proof. One would also hope that there would be a reciprocal arrangement by which those Jews who were forced to leave Arab or North African countries and leave much of their property behind would also be compensated.

I never consider the UN Partition Plan was right or wrong as we never did have an opportunity to see how it would work. I acknowledge that the Palestinians and Arab states found the Partition Plan to be unfavourable, but also acknowledge that Palestine has warmed to the idea of a two state solution that follows the Partition Plan. It may as well be a case of too little to late as I believe Israel is reluctant to agree because of the infrastructural investment that has already been made on these lands and their significance in terms of resource and regional buffer.

The Partition Plan however was the catalyst that made possible Israel's very strategic defence/attack effort that managed to conquer Palestinian lands while holding back and defeating Palestinians and its Arab allies. The Plan allowed Israel to place its forces along key areas, particularly areas of British presence who on the day withdrew based on the end of the mandate. Hours after the wirhdrawal, Israel forces positioned and readied themselves along the Plan borders and cleared lands off of Arab Palestines to stymie resistance and uprising. What was transpiring the weeks before and during these was an intricate and impressive series of warfare tactics from purchasing huge amounts of ammo prior to this event to the use of underground and clandestine activities in producing weaponry. I don't think the Israelis themselves expected that they would be able to advance further beyond the Partition borders, but they did. This conquest can be seen both ways, firstly from a warfare standpoint it can be a great example of a victorious military organisation, secondly from a humanistic standpoint it can be an example of ethnic cleansing, as how it's conveyed in the Oxford book on Genocide Studies.

In terms of compensation for those expelled, that boat too has already sailed. Any records of ownership pre 1967 Israel is not recognised by Israel based on the Law of Acquisition of Absentee Property. As Palestinians were driven out from their lands, this land ensured that they lose their land to a custodian who then can create an affidavit that overrides evidence from the UNCCP.

Palestine has been proactive in the two state solution, and in the 90s with the mediation of the US, it almost became reality until the withdrawal of Israel due to pressure from their homebase. The reason cited is the distrust placed on Palestinians, but one wonders if within the ranks of the Israeli administration, there are still a few covert alliances holding on to the doctrines of their terrorist past.

 

[Homar]

Oh please, they are little more than glorified fireworks an you know it, just how many fatalities have Israel "Endured" from the total number used in all the years its been occupying ?, you condone the use of bombs and missiles in densely populated area`s, any one of which has killed far more that that total, as Israel "Defending its self".

Hamas possesses mainly grad-type katyusha rockets, which are unguided and have very small warheads. These crude rockets were designed for use by rocket-propelled artillery, where dozens are fired in salvos. Single rockets by themselves are capable of causing very limited damage. The blast radius is small and an almost direct hit is needed to kill, which is why they are a psychological weapon more than anything else.

Conversely, many of the solid-fuel missiles in Hezbollah's possession are highly sophisticated, some with a CEP of just a couple of metres. Many can carry conventional warheads ranging from 100kg to 500kg, which are capable of completely destroying both military and civilian infrastructure. A 500kg cluster munition warhead is capable of levelling an entire city block. These missiles were acquired from Iran after the 2006 war, which ended in a stalemate. Hezbollah now possesses weapons of sufficient power and number to deter Israel from embarking on further military incursions into Lebanon. It is the only reason that the Israel-Lebanon border has been quiet since.

 

[cucumberman]

I honestly believe that anyone that attacks Israel knows what the response will be.
Israel have always hit back harder and more effectively.
They have been attacked by all of their neighbours at some point and have built up their military accordingly.
My only surprise is that people still attack them.

That's fair and all, but what if you don't attack you still get killed?

The flotilla incident
Activists like Hurndall and Corrie
Children playing being non violent
A wheelchair bound man
A farmer who was on his way to farm
The kids who were playing football at the beach
Peaceful protests
Paramedics trying to reach the injured
Journalists

Many of these were shot in the head with the exception of Corrie who was killed by a bulldozer and the kids on the beach.

We also have an American child whose head was kicked several times in the head even when his hands were cuffed, the 3 year old holding a courgette corer who was detained, the lady who was transporting a gas canister as she was moving house, etc.

Some disturbing viewing on the plight of children

 

[west didsblue]

That's fair and all, but what if you don't attack you still get killed?

The flotilla incident
Activists like Hurndall and Corrie
Children playing being non violent
A wheelchair bound man
A farmer who was on his way to farm
The kids who were playing football at the beach
Peaceful protests
Paramedics trying to reach the injured
Journalists

Many of these were shot in the head with the exception of Corrie who was killed by a bulldozer and the kids on the beach.

We also have an American child whose head was kicked several times in the head even when his hands were cuffed, the 3 year old holding a courgette corer who was detained, the lady who was transporting a gas canister as she was moving house, etc.

Some disturbing viewing on the plight of children

Would that be the wheelchair bound man who was the founder of Hamas and personally gave his approval for the launching of rocket attacks against Israeli cities, as well as for the numerous Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings? I suppose you believe being wheelchair bound should have given him inmmunity from responsibility for his actions.

 

[cucumberman]

Would that be the wheelchair bound man who was the founder of Hamas and personally gave his approval for the launching of rocket attacks against Israeli cities, as well as for the numerous Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings? I suppose you believe being wheelchair bound should have given him inmmunity from responsibility for his actions.

No, it's this guy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...est-disabled-no-legs-wheelchair-a8114766.html

I'm appalled at your lack of sympathy in all this, the first thing that you did was scour through the list and picked one narrative that paints a bad light on the Palestinian.

I now know your true colours. Your first assumption in anything a Palestinian does is that they are Hamas, regardless if they are wheelchair bound or a child.

 

[lust overlord]

No, it's this guy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...est-disabled-no-legs-wheelchair-a8114766.html

I'm appalled at your lack of sympathy in all this, the first thing that you did was scour through the list and picked one narrative that paints a bad light on the Palestinian.

I now know your true colours. Your first assumption in anything a Palestinian does is that they are Hamas, regardless if they are wheelchair bound or a child.

All the rest were asking for it as well.

 

[west didsblue]

No, it's this guy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...est-disabled-no-legs-wheelchair-a8114766.html

I'm appalled at your lack of sympathy in all this, the first thing that you did was scour through the list and picked one narrative that paints a bad light on the Palestinian.

I now know your true colours. Your first assumption in anything a Palestinian does is that they are Hamas, regardless if they are wheelchair bound or a child.

Not sure how you extrapolate that from my mistaken assumption you were talking about Ahmed Yassin who happened to be wheelchair bound. I haven't commented on the others on the list and I am sure that many of them died in unjustifiable circumstances.