Middle East Conflict (merged)

[cucumberman]

To be fair,people on both sides of this debate very often fall into the trap of attempting to defend the indefensible.

Well it is impossible to have a fair discussion when all the other party shouts out is Hamas this, Hamas that, he's Hamas, she's Hamas, Hamas charter, Molotov cocktails, etc. Everyone gets it, there is an extreme faction in the equation. But to superimpose this in every discussion about Palestinian people is highly conjectural.

Israel has its fair share of extreme factions and no one is equating them to the Israeli people. Rather in this thread, the focus is on the IDF, which is justifiable considering members of these factions have been usurped into the IDF.

Many are quick to point out that Palestine, equipped with their molotovs and bombs, have always been the drivers of extreme violence, but the first bomb in Palestinian land targeting the public was an anti-Arab bomb, and the first massacre in Palestinian land was instigated by anti-British agenda during the Jaffa riots. The 1937 Black Sunday alone, an anti-Arab driven attack, was a period of more than 60 terrorist attacks involving hand grenades and bombs thrown onto streets and coffee shops to kill Arabs. After 1937, bombings intensified to the point that it was at times a daily occurrence, notable ones with casualties include:

1. April 12, 1938 - Haifa train bomb attack - Casualty: 2 Arab, 2 British.
2. June 26, 1938 - Jaffa bomb attack - 7 Arabs
3. June, 1938 - Arab market bomb attack - Unknown casualty, bomb was thrown into an overcrowded market
4. July 5, 1938 - Jerusalem bus bomb attack - 3 Arabs
5. July 6, 1938 - Haifa Arab melon market bomb attacks - 18 Arabs. A further 60 wounded.
6. July 8, 1938 - Jerusalem bomb attack - 4 Arabs
7. July 16, 1938 - Jerusalem market bomb attack - 10 Arabs
8. July 25, 1938 - Haifa marketplace bomb attack - 43 Arabs
9. August 26, 1938 - Jaffa marketplace bomb attack - 24 Arabs
10. February 27, 1939 - Haifa Souq Quarter market bomb attack - 24 Arabs
11. February 27, 1939 - Jerusalem Arab vegetable market bomb attack - 4 Arabs
12. February 27, 1939 - Other market bomb attacks - 4 Arabs
13. May 29, 1939 - Rex cinema mine bomb attack - 5 Arabs
14. June 2, 1939 - Jerusalem Jaffa Gate bomb attack - 5 Arabs
15. June 19, 1939 - Haifa market bombs-on-donkey attack - 20 Arabs
16. December 27, 1945 - British CID headquarters Jerusalem bomb attack - 3 British
17. July 22, 1946 - King David Hotel bomb attack - 41 Arabs, 28 British. A further 45 wounded.
18. January 12, 1947 - British Headquarters bomb attack - 4 British
19. March 1, 1947 - bomb attack - 17 British
20. December 12, 1947 - Damascus Gate barrel-bomb attack - 20 Arabs
21. December 13, 1947 - Jerusalem and Jaffa bomb attacks - 16 Arabs. A further 67 wounded.
22. December 16, 1947 - Jaffa Noga cinema bomb attack - 10 Arabs
23. December 29, 1947 - Jerusalem and Irgun bomb attacks - 13 Arabs
24. December 29, 1947 - Damascus Gate Cafe bomb attack - 11 Arabs, 2 British
25. December 29, 1947 - Palestine Post bomb attack - 15
26. December 30, 1947 - Irgun bomb attack - 6 Arabs
27. January 1, 1948 - Haifa bomb attack - 70 Arabs
28. January 5, 1948 - Serrani Ottoman Town Hall bomb attack - 14 Arabs. A further 19 injured
29. February 29, 1948 - Cairo-Haifa train bomb attack - 28 British
30. March 31, 1948 - Binyamina train bomb attack - 40 Arabs. A further 60 wounded.

Within a period of 10 years prior to and coming to the creation of Israel, bomb attacks have killed more than 420 Arabs, more than 80 British. This casualty count didn't include sniper killings, a practice that has remained until this day. Within that 10 year period, there was only 1 documented bomb attack from Arabs. The first Arab suicide bomber in Palestine was in 1989.

in today's world, just one of those bombings listed above would fuel an international condemnation. A terrorist attack on a cafe caused global uproar. But many have forgotten of the bombings on civilians that helped shape the region as we know it now.

 

[Sir peace frog]

I'm sure both sides are to blame for a lot of the shit that happens ,but west didsblue your attitude on this thread to me seems to be fuck it they deserve everything they get ,the Arab side imo have tried to debate and they come up against excuses,
"well they were given a 300 yard no go zone ,and if they dare to step in it they get all they deserve ,they might have thrown rocks at the soldiers" or words to that effect.
those videos of children getting kicked to fuck from soldiers tells me everything I need to know how the Jews view the Palestinians

 

[west didsblue]

I'm sure both sides are to blame for a lot of the shit that happens ,but west didsblue your attitude on this thread to me seems to be fuck it they deserve everything they get ,the Arab side imo have tried to debate and they come up against excuses,
"well they were given a 300 yard no go zone ,and if they dare to step in it they get all they deserve ,they might have thrown rocks at the soldiers" or words to that effect.
those videos of children getting kicked to fuck from soldiers tells me everything I need to know how the Jews view the Palestinians

Not sure where you've got this attitude of mine from. I've repeatedly criticised excessive force used by the IDF and have stated numerous times that Netanyahu and his right wing government are up there with Hamas as the biggest obstacles to peace. I've also previously said that it's up to the Israeli government to make the next concession as a gesture of goodwill as they are in a position of strength. Not once have I implied that all Palestinians deserve what they get. I've no sympathy for the Hamas members amongst them who have been instrumental in organising the protests though.

 

[west didsblue]

Well it is impossible to have a fair discussion when all the other party shouts out is Hamas this, Hamas that, he's Hamas, she's Hamas, Hamas charter, Molotov cocktails, etc. Everyone gets it, there is an extreme faction in the equation. But to superimpose this in every discussion about Palestinian people is highly conjectural.

Israel has its fair share of extreme factions and no one is equating them to the Israeli people. Rather in this thread, the focus is on the IDF, which is justifiable considering members of these factions have been usurped into the IDF.

Many are quick to point out that Palestine, equipped with their molotovs and bombs, have always been the drivers of extreme violence, but the first bomb in Palestinian land targeting the public was an anti-Arab bomb, and the first massacre in Palestinian land was instigated by anti-British agenda during the Jaffa riots. The 1937 Black Sunday alone, an anti-Arab driven attack, was a period of more than 60 terrorist attacks involving hand grenades and bombs thrown onto streets and coffee shops to kill Arabs. After 1937, bombings intensified to the point that it was at times a daily occurrence, notable ones with casualties include:

1. April 12, 1938 - Haifa train bomb attack - Casualty: 2 Arab, 2 British.
2. June 26, 1938 - Jaffa bomb attack - 7 Arabs
3. June, 1938 - Arab market bomb attack - Unknown casualty, bomb was thrown into an overcrowded market
4. July 5, 1938 - Jerusalem bus bomb attack - 3 Arabs
5. July 6, 1938 - Haifa Arab melon market bomb attacks - 18 Arabs. A further 60 wounded.
6. July 8, 1938 - Jerusalem bomb attack - 4 Arabs
7. July 16, 1938 - Jerusalem market bomb attack - 10 Arabs
8. July 25, 1938 - Haifa marketplace bomb attack - 43 Arabs
9. August 26, 1938 - Jaffa marketplace bomb attack - 24 Arabs
10. February 27, 1939 - Haifa Souq Quarter market bomb attack - 24 Arabs
11. February 27, 1939 - Jerusalem Arab vegetable market bomb attack - 4 Arabs
12. February 27, 1939 - Other market bomb attacks - 4 Arabs
13. May 29, 1939 - Rex cinema mine bomb attack - 5 Arabs
14. June 2, 1939 - Jerusalem Jaffa Gate bomb attack - 5 Arabs
15. June 19, 1939 - Haifa market bombs-on-donkey attack - 20 Arabs
16. December 27, 1945 - British CID headquarters Jerusalem bomb attack - 3 British
17. July 22, 1946 - King David Hotel bomb attack - 41 Arabs, 28 British. A further 45 wounded.
18. January 12, 1947 - British Headquarters bomb attack - 4 British
19. March 1, 1947 - bomb attack - 17 British
20. December 12, 1947 - Damascus Gate barrel-bomb attack - 20 Arabs
21. December 13, 1947 - Jerusalem and Jaffa bomb attacks - 16 Arabs. A further 67 wounded.
22. December 16, 1947 - Jaffa Noga cinema bomb attack - 10 Arabs
23. December 29, 1947 - Jerusalem and Irgun bomb attacks - 13 Arabs
24. December 29, 1947 - Damascus Gate Cafe bomb attack - 11 Arabs, 2 British
25. December 29, 1947 - Palestine Post bomb attack - 15
26. December 30, 1947 - Irgun bomb attack - 6 Arabs
27. January 1, 1948 - Haifa bomb attack - 70 Arabs
28. January 5, 1948 - Serrani Ottoman Town Hall bomb attack - 14 Arabs. A further 19 injured
29. February 29, 1948 - Cairo-Haifa train bomb attack - 28 British
30. March 31, 1948 - Binyamina train bomb attack - 40 Arabs. A further 60 wounded.

Within a period of 10 years prior to and coming to the creation of Israel, bomb attacks have killed more than 420 Arabs, more than 80 British. This casualty count didn't include sniper killings, a practice that has remained until this day. Within that 10 year period, there was only 1 documented bomb attack from Arabs. The first Arab suicide bomber in Palestine was in 1989.

in today's world, just one of those bombings listed above would fuel an international condemnation. A terrorist attack on a cafe caused global uproar. But many have forgotten of the bombings on civilians that helped shape the region as we know it now.

I see you've carefully filtered out all the attacks where Jews were killed by Arabs over the same period. You lose quite a lot of credibility when you do that.
Here's the full list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

 

[aguerooooo]

What cannot be overlooked is the role of iran in all this Surely smuggling weapons to hit Israel with are not what the Palestinians need Better to disperse the money to aid the needs and improve the economy Most Palestinians would prefer this but Hamas rule and while this is the case peace is unobtainable Taking sides will end up with this forum becoming toxic. and most are unaware of all the facts i am jewish and lived in a block of flats in Israel There were 5 Palestinians families and us Possibly the best neighbours ive had. The only rows we had were of a sporting nature i was City and they were fanatical reds of the scouse and Stretford persuasion

 

[Scottyboi]

What cannot be overlooked is the role of iran in all this Surely smuggling weapons to hit Israel with are not what the Palestinians need Better to disperse the money to aid the needs and improve the economy Most Palestinians would prefer this but Hamas rule and while this is the case peace is unobtainable Taking sides will end up with this forum becoming toxic. and most are unaware of all the facts i am jewish and lived in a block of flats in Israel There were 5 Palestinians families and us Possibly the best neighbours ive had. The only rows we had were of a sporting nature i was City and they were fanatical reds of the scouse and Stretford persuasion

Break in their flat and make them live out of the bathroom :)

 

[blueonblue]

The truth is Israel was a land grab by a bunch of crooks hiding behind an ideology claiming a religion as justification.

While the likes of west didsbury defends on the grounds of sympathy for the Jewish cause, I doubt he see`s that cause as theft and murder, but what else is Israel but a bunch of foreigners who rocked up in tanks and forced the locals out at the end of a gun ?.
Condemning Hamas and all the other groups for violence is all well and good, but what other choice was left to them ?, the land grabs and murders continue so what are they supposed to do, they are the product of Israel.
What would YOU do if there was a knock on the door and a bloke in a tank told you to f*ck off because its his house now, would you at least try and fight back, would you bring your kids up to fight, how far would you go when nobody will lift a finger to help.

 

[cucumberman]

I'm sure both sides are to blame for a lot of the shit that happens ,but west didsblue your attitude on this thread to me seems to be fuck it they deserve everything they get ,the Arab side imo have tried to debate and they come up against excuses,
"well they were given a 300 yard no go zone ,and if they dare to step in it they get all they deserve ,they might have thrown rocks at the soldiers" or words to that effect.
those videos of children getting kicked to fuck from soldiers tells me everything I need to know how the Jews view the Palestinians

I no longer see his posts, I've put him on my ignore list as its a lost cause. I should add though on your post I don't think Jews, or Israeli people for that matter are the problem here. Most are relatively decent people who have no problems with Arabs and likewise. We have to discern between Israelis and the ones whose fingers are on the trigger, or like you said the ones kicking heads and knocking children out cold.

 

[cucumberman]

Don't think your input on this thread hasn't been appreciated mate, ive read these lengthy post between you & West Dids twice over so i can take it all in. Fascinating stuff.

Unfortunately it's lengthy discussion on these banal issues that detract the main concern we have, mistreatment of children and the public. I remembered the discussion in a similar thread about children being blown up on the beach but it somehow got dragged into a discussion similar to where this thread has gone. It really dilutes the issue of a child being killed by tear gas, children being shot in the head. I don't understand why some have to politicise what is clearly an act that no other modern government in the world condones, let allow carry out. I'm going to delete these lengthy posts surely most have read them. What should be central to this thread is the heavy handedness of attacks whose victims are oftentimes innocent people.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The truth is Israel was a land grab by a bunch of crooks hiding behind an ideology claiming a religion as justification.

While the likes of west didsbury defends on the grounds of sympathy for the Jewish cause, I doubt he see`s that cause as theft and murder, but what else is Israel but a bunch of foreigners who rocked up in tanks and forced the locals out at the end of a gun ?.
Condemning Hamas and all the other groups for violence is all well and good, but what other choice was left to them ?, the land grabs and murders continue so what are they supposed to do, they are the product of Israel.
What would YOU do if there was a knock on the door and a bloke in a tank told you to f*ck off because its his house now, would you at least try and fight back, would you bring your kids up to fight, how far would you go when nobody will lift a finger to help.

Fucking hell. Nearly a full-house on the old antisemite bingo card.