Middle East Conflict (merged)

Bigga said:
I'm not looking to argue with you, but I have a question; what's the difference between Israel asking to be made a state and Palestine asking the same?

Nobody owns the land on this earth, it's claimed by default and only as Mother Nature grants it.

I find it all hypocritical for the US to support and fund apartheid in this modern day and age.
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US hypocrisy with regard to apartheid is pretty standard.
 
This is how it works: protesters in Finchley are condemned as racists. Boris Johnson takes to Twitter to condemn the racists. The Daily Mail features an article about the racists and moderates its comments so that only those who condemn the racists are allowed to speak. The comments sections are full of 'we want our country back', "I dont recognise our country anymore' type comments. Meanwhile, any discussion on why the protest happened doesn't even begin and the media has then done its job for the government. Well done, The Mail. We continue to support you registering in your tax haven.

For what it's worth, I do not agree with the protesters and their vile, racist slurs. Nor do I support the veiled, twitching curtains racism that the comments section was absolutely packed with.

The situation is complex, yes, but in simple terms, the Palestinian people have a right to a home that is not at risk of bombardment and forced annexe. I take your point to heart, Prestwich Blue, but it is time this stopped. We cannot continue to turn a blind eye because we are fightened of the past.
 
Bigga said:
I'm not looking to argue with you, but I have a question; what's the difference between Israel asking to be made a state and Palestine asking the same?

Nobody owns the land on this earth, it's claimed by default and only as Mother Nature grants it.

I find it all hypocritical for the US to support and fund apartheid in this modern day and age.
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First off, I find it breathtakingly hypocritical, given your outspoken support for Trump who aided and abetted Netanyahu in every way he could, that you could make that statement. But I'll answer it.

Second, the difference is that in 1948, when the partition plan came into effect and the British Mandate ended, Israel declared statehood. Had the Arabs done the same thing the map of the area would be very different (see below). But the Arabs didn't accept the Jewish state and attacked it. Hence we ended up with the pre-1967 borders.

partition plan.png

Third, as I said a few posts ago, there was never any intention to create a separate Palestinian state, even if the Arabs had achieved a complete victory. As far as Egypt, Jordan and Syria were concerned, the land was theirs.

Finally, there actually is a Palestininan state. It's called Jordan, which is a completely fabricated country that never existed prior to 1946. King Abdullah of the Hashemite tribe was a Saudi, who was allowed to set up shop in what was then Transjordan as a reward for his support for the British in the Great Arab Revolt of 1916, which helped overthrow the Ottomans. His brother Faisal, who fought with Lawrence of Arabia, became king of Syria.
 
I’m very late to this.
I appreciate I don’t know all the facts, I actually know next to nothing about this, but I fail to see from what I do know how Israel isn’t being condemned from all sides for it’s actions against Palestine.
Yes there has been hostilities since the founding of Israel.
But how does that today justify a state with the (I think) 4th largest armed forces in the world attacking, displacing and killing people who have no way of defending themselves?
What is their argument for doing this? As an anti religious atheist, I find it ugly to suggest it’s because it’s land that god had given to them, Which is what I’ve seen as a reasoning from a few people.

I also only realised a few days ago that Israel is practicing apartheid.
It’s hard for me to comprehend how a country formed after the persecution of Jewish people in WW2 can commit such acts to others.


As stated at the top I don’t know enough about this.
I accept my questions raised are leading/loaded based on my current stance from what I’ve seen and I accept my views on this are susceptible to change with more information. And I’d appreciate any that could be given, as well as any rebuttal to points I’ve made.
 
WhereWereWeWhenWeWereWhat said:
I also only realised a few days ago that Israel is practicing apartheid.
It’s hard for me to comprehend how a country formed after the persecution of Jewish people in WW2 can commit such acts to others.


As stated at the top I don’t know enough about this.
I accept my questions raised are leading/loaded based on my current stance from what I’ve seen and I accept my views on this are susceptible to change with more information. And I’d appreciate any that could be given, as well as any rebuttal to points I’ve made.
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If you look at it now, without any understanding of the history or context, then it's a very easy decision to lump all the blame on Israel.

So I can't blame you for that but I'd like you to explain this concept of Israel being apartheid to me because I simply don't understand it.

If you're an Israeli citizen, regardless of where you come from, your race, religion or ethnic background, you have the vote, you don't travel on segregated public transport, have separate beaches or rest-rooms. That isn't apartheid. So Muslim Arabs have full citizenship rights. That, to me, isn't apartheid. It would be if only Jews did however.

If you're not a citizen then you don't have the vote or any other rights as a citizen. And in the West Bank, they have segregated buses because of suicide bombers, who blew themselves up in shared buses.

If Israel were to formally annexe the West Bank, but deny the Arab residents a vote or any other citizenship rights, then the label 'apartheid' would be far more justified.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If you look at it now, without any understanding of the history or context, then it's a very easy decision to lump all the blame on Israel.

So I can't blame you for that but I'd like you to explain this concept of Israel being apartheid to me because I simply don't understand it.

If you're an Israeli citizen, regardless of where you come from, your race, religion or ethnic background, you have the vote, you don't travel on segregated public transport, have separate beaches or rest-rooms. That isn't apartheid. So Muslim Arabs have full citizenship rights. That, to me, isn't apartheid. It would be if only Jews did however.

If you're not a citizen then you don't have the vote or any other rights as a citizen. And in the West Bank, they have segregated buses because of suicide bombers, who blew themselves up in shared buses.

If Israel were to formally annexe the West Bank, but deny the Arab residents a vote or any other citizenship rights, then the label 'apartheid' would be far more justified.
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www.amnesty.org

Human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.
www.amnesty.org www.amnesty.org

Link above is to Amnesty Int'l take on things. Maybe Amnesty are biased ? - I'm assuming not but have not checked. Seems to be plenty there that justifies the use of the term apartheid, most notably perhaps the Nation State Law.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If you look at it now, without any understanding of the history or context, then it's a very easy decision to lump all the blame on Israel.

So I can't blame you for that but I'd like you to explain this concept of Israel being apartheid to me because I simply don't understand it.

If you're an Israeli citizen, regardless of where you come from, your race, religion or ethnic background, you have the vote, you don't travel on segregated public transport, have separate beaches or rest-rooms. That isn't apartheid. So Muslim Arabs have full citizenship rights. That, to me, isn't apartheid. It would be if only Jews did however.

If you're not a citizen then you don't have the vote or any other rights as a citizen. And in the West Bank, they have segregated buses because of suicide bombers, who blew themselves up in shared buses.

If Israel were to formally annexe the West Bank, but deny the Arab residents a vote or any other citizenship rights, then the label 'apartheid' would be far more justified.
Click to expand...
If what I’ve seen is true, there are areas where Palestinian families are in gated areas and can’t leave at certain times. There is also a permit system in the west bank for Palestinians. Also the buses, like you said it is because of bombings but not every palestinian is going to blow up a bus and alot of Muslims kill fellow Muslims in these attacks so whats in place to help them?
 
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