Middle East Conflict (merged)

A fair point.

I'd like to think I hate every Gov that treats its people and others poorly.

But, that's just me..
So that would include Hamas & the Palestinian Authority, who also oppress the people they're supposed to represent and are totally intolerant of anyone who isn't them. You can be openly gay in Israel and be part of the government but in Gaza you'll be thrown off the top of a tall building.

And Israel has had 4 elections in the last 4 years but Abbas is 17 years into a 4 year term. None of that justifies many of Israel's actions of course. But it doesn't mean the other sides' leaders are angels either.
 
So that would include Hamas & the Palestinian Authority, who also oppress the people they're supposed to represent and are totally intolerant of anyone who isn't them. You can be openly gay in Israel and be part of the government but in Gaza you'll be thrown off the top of a tall building.

And Israel has had 4 elections in the last 4 years but Abbas is 17 years into a 4 year term. None of that justifies many of Israel's actions of course. But it doesn't mean the other sides' leaders are angels either.

Nobody loves Hamas as far as I know and there's no real caveat to insert except that innocent people are caught in crossfire.

So, anyway, I remember podcast that talked of the history of Hamas and that they were, basically, Adam's Rib and it caught my attention.

I found an article dating back to 2006 and thought I'd post a snippet from it:
In 1970, when the king of Jordan launched his massive counter-offensive against the Palestinians there in that event called Black September, the Muslim Brotherhood was a strong supporter of the king and actually backed his effort, which resulted in thousands of Palestinians killed in a virtual civil war in Jordan.

So there’s plenty of evidence that the Israeli intelligence services, especially Shin Bet and the military occupation authorities, encouraged the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood and the founding of Hamas. There are many examples and incidents of that. But there were armed clashes, of course, on Palestinian university campuses in the ’70s and ’80s, where Hamas would attack P.L.O., PFLP, PDFLP and other groups, with clubs and chains. This was before guns became prominent in the Occupied Territories.

Even that, however — there’s a very interesting and unexplained incident. Yassin was arrested in 1983 by the Israelis. On search of his home, they found a large cache of weapons. This would have been a fairly explosive event, but for unexplained reasons, a year later Yassin was quietly released from prison. He said at the time that the guns were being stockpiled not to fight the Israeli occupation authorities, but to fight other Palestinian factions.

That and other incidents gave rise to — a number of diplomats and intelligence people who I interviewed, saying that there was plenty of reason to think that the Israelis were fostering the growth of Hamas. And, of course, Yasser Arafat himself, in a famous quote to a newspaper reporter a number of years ago, explicitly described Hamas as, quote, “a creature of Israel.” And he said that he discussed this with Yitzhak Rabin during their Oslo process. And Rabin told Arafat that it was “a fatal error” for the Israelis to have encouraged the growth of Hamas. The theory of it, of course, was that Hamas would be a force against Palestinian nationalism. And I think it’s clear that it ended up, to a shocking degree, backfiring against overall Israeli policy.

Full Article from Democracy Now

To me, it's kind of like how the US funded Al Qaeda before it turned on them. I'm continuing my research, but it's quite difficult to find articles that don't lean on one way or the other with this continuing conflict.
 
Nobody loves Hamas as far as I know and there's no real caveat to insert except that innocent people are caught in crossfire.

So, anyway, I remember podcast that talked of the history of Hamas and that they were, basically, Adam's Rib and it caught my attention.

I found an article dating back to 2006 and thought I'd post a snippet from it:


Full Article from Democracy Now

To me, it's kind of like how the US funded Al Qaeda before it turned on them. I'm continuing my research, but it's quite difficult to find articles that don't lean on one way or the other with this continuing conflict.
It does beg the question of why Hamas would escalate issues so much as to then fire rockets into Israel knowing that they‘d have little effect but receive a counter that would have far serious consequences to the people it is purported to protect.
 
It does beg the question of why Hamasn would escalate issues so much as to then fire rockets into Israel knowing that they‘d have little effect but receive a counter that would have far serious consequences to the people it is purported to protect.
Because it's the best propaganda for them and justifies their existence. In the same way the Israeli reaction justifies their government being able to claim they're strong on security. I've said this a number of times before but the extremists on both sides need each other.

The average Israeli may well be sick of the seemingly never ending cycle of action and reaction but they value security over pretty much everything else.
 
Because it's the best propaganda for them and justifies their existence. In the same way the Israeli reaction justifies their government being able to claim they're strong on security. I've said this a number of times before but the extremists on both sides need each other.

The average Israeli may well be sick of the seemingly never ending cycle of action and reaction but they value security over pretty much everything else.
I’m not sure that Hamas has any credibility anymore, continually undermining what it is supposedly there to achieve. There was an interview with a Palestinian who had lost family who was asked about Hamas and you could see in her face that she had no time but completely refused to have any say whatsoever. It was quite clear that she was scared of expressing an opinion which doesn’t seem right when you think that they are supposed to be there supporting the,.
 
So, herein lies the question; can anybody be critical of the Israeli gov without straying into antisemitism, cos THAT'S what the majority of people are doing, to my mind and it was Benny Netty that got himself all bunched up about it, followed by a whole host of his fellow followers/ fans.

It's just not okay to murder and evict your fellow Human Being at will, anywhere.

I, simply, do not know where the mine fields are when it comes to Israel.
Why can't you be critical? I don't agree with what Israel is doing, I agree they have a right to defend themselves but not to steal land. Anti-semitism is very clearly defined and has nothing to do with Israel but the IHRA adopted several definitions involving Israel because of the Jewish identification towards Israel.

The most common type of anti-semitism exists in the stereotype that Jewish people and institutions own an invisible hand behind key institutions in the west. People often use this stereotype without thinking when referring to Israel, Mossad etc which is anti-semitic. Jeremy Corbyn very famously liked a mural depicting this stereotype despite apparently being the most unracist person in the UK.

This is the problem many on the left for example have, they claim they are not racist or anti-semitic until it comes to protecting the right to criticise Israel which is often fuelled by an undertone of these Jewish stereotypes and as Prestwich Blue said, double standards. Now many on the right also hold this view, it isn't specific to the left but that's where it's most often seen at the moment.
 
Yes you can critical of the government without bring antisemitic. Many Israelis do that, as do other Jews around the world. I don't see why people find that hard to grasp.

But if you're only ever critical of Israel's government and not any other that is authoritarian, oppressive to minorities within the country or it's neighbours, then don't be surprised when you get called out.
But this is a thread about Israel and Palestine so why should other governments be brought into it?
 
Where did I compare it to the Nazi regime?

These actions are classed as genocide. When you have far the capability to kill and drive a race out then it’s exactly that.

Have we not learned from history or do we just pick and choose how we depict it.

Let's hope one day these bastards are brought before the Hague and are done good an proper, Hopefully that murderering **** Nethanyahu is right at the front.
 
But this is a thread about Israel and Palestine so why should other governments be brought into it?

Good question. I searched @Prestwich_Blue's own post history for references to "Yazidi", "Rohingya" and "Uighur".

There was no comment about Yazidis only a reply to another poster in the Shamima Begum thread.

For Rohingya and Uighur, references were only made when discussing Israel/Palestine but for one implied reference to Israel/Palestine in a Rohingya thread.

As he has been critical of Israeli government to a greater extent and also made many more references.... using his own logic... I am at pains to ask whether there is any antisemitic motivation behind his criticism of Israel?
 

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