Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

The US have been hitting bases used by Iran since this whole thing kicked off. Today is nothing unusual. They are actually being quite reserved in the grand scheme of things. Seems to be when US personel get hurt that the hit back.

Indeed, US is very reserved in not getting in their fight for Israel. They wouldn’t want against the large part of Middle East, given how many soldiers they have lost with PTSD post Afghanistan, and then after the Taliban. All because of the Weapons of Mass Destruction that never was.

If I were a US soldier, I wouldn’t want to fight on behalf of Israel and their Weapon of Mass Distraction.

 

[cucumberman]

Supporting actors and extras each with a stationary pose, in particular that one who was seated in a vajrasana position (sp?).

 

[cucumberman]

Supporting actors and extras each with a stationary pose, in particular that one who was seated in a vajrasana position (sp?).

Whilst at the same time, them mentioning of innocent children, is not the same as them affecting of innocent children

Caution: Graphic video of children alive but with excruciating pain lasting for some time, and lives altered forever.

 

[cucumberman]

This was OP thread on Reddit by an Israeli user:

Statistics Show That Israel Has Successfully Minimized Gazan Civilian Casualties

A law school Dean published the below. Curious to know this sub's opinions. Any civilian casualty on either side is a regrettable tragedy in its own right but this statistical analysis seems to show that Israel has done a good job minimizing civilian casualties compared to other conflicts.

Set aside the unreliability of figures provided by Hamas--a terrorist organization that falsely accused Israel of killing 500 civilians with a rocket that was actually fired by Gazan militants. Even taken at face value, it is worth putting Hamas' figures in "context" (a favorite word of Israel's critics).

1. It's been reported that 67% of Gazans killed have been women and children. [https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...ted-conflict-gaza-experts/story?id=104655493). But according to a 2022 UN report, in a typical war, 90% of casualties are civilians. [https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). Israel is actually causing fewer civilian deaths than in the typical conflict, notwithstanding the dense urban environment.
2. Upwards of 5,500 Gazan casualties--nearly 1/3 the total--are reported to be children. [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22...gaza-hostilities-take-horrific-toll-children). What is not reported is how many of those "children" are boys 17 and under carrying automatic rifles, and thus legitimate enemy combatants. Plus, over 1/2 Gaza's population is under 18. [. So fewer minors are dying than one would expect if Israel were indiscriminately killing civilians.
3. What civilians typically do to survive a war is...leave. In Ukraine, within a month of Russia's invasion, nearly 1/2 of the population had left their homes and 1/4 had left the country--some 14 million people. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukr...wiki/Ukrainian_refugee_crisis_(2022–present)). But neighboring Arab states have refused to accept Palestinian refugees. They claim if they do, Israel might make Gazans' displacement permanent--a curious concern, given that Israel voluntarily left Gaza in 2005 and even forcibly evicted 9,000 Jewish residents. [https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/o...tes-disengagement-from-the-gaza-strip-679288). One would think a theoretical risk of displacement is better than a real risk of dying. Since Gazans can't or won't flee, the civilian death toll necessarily climbs, and Israel--not Hamas--continues to be blamed.
4. Responses to unprovoked attacks often cause more deaths than the attacks themselves. That doesn't make the response illegitimate. The 9/11 attacks killed 3,000 American civilians. ([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas.../wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_attacks)) In the Aghan war that followed, between 46,000 and 360,000 civilians died. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil...alties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001–2021))).

The author concludes: The hatred of Israel is what's disproportionate, not Israel's response. No other nation would respond differently. Yet no other nation is as hated. Antisemitism, not body count, makes the difference.

Which after on my Reddit account my response was this:

1. ⁠When you do ‘ergo’ and proximate the remaining 23% are Hamas, then your conjecture contradicts your citation of the UN document as your reference. For one, the UN document emphasised the “inhumane” accounts of the war. Thus, in reference of that document, which is entwined with the proportional ratio of Ukraine’s 1 civilian with every 27 soldiers (based on most current 9700 civilians and 250,000 civilians killed, rounded up). In contrast, again basing your calculation (23%) that 4,900 (rounded up for your subjective bias) out of the 20000 (rounded down for your subjective bias) are Hamas, the proportional ratio is thus 1 out of 5 Gazans killed are Hamas. And that is including all men being Hamas eventhough they are doctors, press, given your subjective bias. Therefore, based on YOUR referencing whereby the document declared 1:27 of Ukraine war is a civilian is already a war crime act, whereas 1:5 of Gazan war is not, then by your mutatis mutandis you have contradicted your own reference.
2. ⁠And then you conjectured further that children can have weapons too. I shall graciously give you more. Let’s included all children including girls and newborn infants holding weapons, thus out of 20,000 Gazan killed, all the men and children from newborn age old to adulthood are Hamas then 3 out of every 4 killed are Hamas. Thus, Comparison matrix based on 1:27 of Ukraine war, the Gazan war is 9:27. And this is by very gracious value, for your subjective bias. Therefore, for Ukraine war where ‘1 in 27 Ukrainian killed is a civilian’ is already war crime, then why is ‘9 in 27 Gazan killed is a civilian’ is not a war crime by your reasoning in reference to the UN document you cited?
3. ⁠Jordan and Egypt both have been graciously fulfilling the acceptance and migration of refugees, but the process is arduous and not abrupt. Jordan already has 6 million Palestinians gradually integrated since the Nakba, not including other refugee camps for Syrians such as Zaatari Camp. Egypt also is accommodating refugees totalling 9 million, including Sudan. Both countries have given a wide open window for accepting the displaced, but understand that countries are physical spaces requiring a balance of sustainable economy and income per capita. Lebanon with its circumstances also has 1.5 million refugees. In contrast to the open window of refugees in spite of the trade-offs provisioned by the countries above mentioned, Israel has a refugee of less than 1500, mostly from Eritrea. Africa around 2010 requested for asylum in Israel, but were rejected after having had a few asylums enter by illegal means (as per asylum seekers), and then built the Israel-Egypt border, with Africans repatriated for their asylum reverted as work-migrants. More recently, May Golan rejected asylum for opining that Africans are rapists and spreaders of HIV.

Thus, in comparion of the millions of refugees by Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan having refugees of 1.5mil, 9mil and 6mil respectively, Israel has not only displaced 700,000 Palestinians but also restrict refugees to less than 1,000. Which is 0.6% of refugees provided compared to just Lebanon.

4. Is clutching straws. The modus operandi and goals of 9/11 and Oct.7 are different. The former was by means of holy war, the latter is by means of re-governance between two warring factions having not met the two-state solution and equal rights.

————
And then after he responded on my response by below:

I don't understand the significance of the 1 in 27 deaths are civilian in Ukraine. Why look at a single conflict that isn't even necessarily comparable in terms of war e.g. close urban combat whereas ukraine includes vast open space fighting as well?

shouldn't we look at a wider aggregate of civilian death rate? that's what the 90% figure was supposed to do.

And then after another user (not me), who was responding to the above:

News media are referring to what’s happening in Ukraine as genocide and condemning Russia for its killing of civilians.

When we say this about Israel it’s antisemitic, despite the numbers in Gaza being significantly worse

 

[cucumberman]

Link of that opinion by the Reddit OP here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/rzjiEGaXx0

His/her account is @bestcommenteversofar and has been put on a pedestal by pro-Israeli users, mainly on justifying the war as not a war crime/genocide/ethnic cleansing and the world revolves around them.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Not even a debate now, just murder while the world watches.

 

[BlueAnorak]

There was a time in this thread, that a few skeptics discredited the possibility of some of the killings in Kibbutz was by irresponsible IDF.

Channel 12 Israel news actually have interviews with ACTUAL Kibbutz survivors. Of how, even houses without the presence of Hamas, IDF fired tank shells on houses, killing the Israelis there.



It is utterly irresponsible by the IDF. Why didn’t they just call by phone each house to make sure who is who instead of repeatedly shelling.

Channel 12 Israel have actually been conducting interviews with Israeli Kibbutz survivors and released hostages, but the narrative by Channel i24, which is pro IDF, drowns out the news of first-hand Israelis.

And your point is what exactly? That Isreal attacked itself?

Hamas attacked Isreal. 2,000+ dead - double that injured.

Such casualties as you descibe were minimal not the big deal you make it.

If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel this war wouldn't be taking place. All the anti-Israel bollox and whataboutary in the world can't change that - even though you clearly want it too.

 

[cucumberman]

And absolutely no remorse, even more so, laughing of having killed a 12 year old.

Edit:

I see ‘show ignored content’ here and I opt to not know who. But indubitably, feathers being ruffled and with angry smiles.

 

[BlueAnorak]

One side is committing genocide. The other is terrorist. Their fault, his fault whatever. You support a genocidal regime? Like other support a terrorist regime. Taking sides really shows very ones true colours, no one gives a shite about the deaths whilst you point score. All you "fans" of one side or the other are just as bad as the despots in charge of them.

I support any democracies right to exist.
Not keen on Isreal's tactics - But Hamas have spent 15 years fortifying Gaza into an armed camp - so they can attack Isreal using the rest of the Palestinian people as human shields.
Even so considering the amount of ordinance dropped, casualties though horrendous, are relatively light.
Hopefully the US can FORCE Isreal to go about this war as veteran US and UK military commanders have stated - otherwise in the long term Israel will be totally isolated and will, as a result, lose.
Of course many on here will want that as they want Isreal to cease to exist. Of course that will mean the death of 9m Jews but they don't give a shit about them.
This war has no good outcomes.
Defeating Hamas as recomended by veteran Western military commanders is probably the least worst outcome. Sadly I don't think it will happen.

 

[Irwell]

Of course many on here will want that as they want Isreal to cease to exist. Of course that will mean the death of 9m Jews but they don't give a shit about them.

Absolute nonsense. These attempts to tar those engaging in political criticism of the Israeli government with the anti-Semitism brush are doing nobody any favours.