Middle East Conflict

[metalblue]

Stolen?
War is about land. It’s not like they sneaked in and ran off with it!

At what point is enough enough? Do you think Oct 7th was an act of war? Invading territory to kill innocents?

If so, the prosecution of that war is ongoing. We can discuss who is at war with whom, and why, if you like, but Iran gave Netanyahu the excuse he was looking for…and he’s going to take it to HIS conclusion. We can discuss that, too, if you like.

But, you don’t go to war, lose people and equipment, then when it ends everyone goes back to their corners and all land is ceded. We cannot discuss that.

This isn’t war though mate. Israel is repeatedly hitting civilians, killing scores, but justifying it by saying they got some baddie.

I do appreciate the tactical complexities of the area they are trying to rid of Hamas - and it is complex - but their distain for human life is sickening. This is why the world is looking on in anger or looking away in shame. The leaders know they can’t influence it so just repeat platitudes like “right to defend itself”.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

This isn’t war though mate. Israel is repeatedly hitting civilians, killing scores, but justifying it by saying they got some baddie.

I do appreciate the tactical complexities of the area they are trying to rid of Hamas - and it is complex - but their distain for human life is sickening. This is why the world is looking on in anger or looking away in shame. The leaders know they can’t influence it so just repeat platitudes like “right to defend itself”.

The thing is they (Israel) do have every right to defend themselves and have the military capacity to do so. Unfortunately hamas and Hezbollah are entwined within the (innocent) civilian population so to attack the terrorists without what we see as unacceptable collateral is nigh on impossible. We faced a similar problem with al Qaeda and IS in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Ultimately you can't expect a load of beardy islamist terrorists to obligingly line up to be shot by a superior military force. They are going to adopt insurgent/guerilla tactics.

 

[Vic]

The thing is they (Israel) do have every right to defend themselves and have the military capacity to do so. Unfortunately hamas and Hezbollah are entwined within the (innocent) civilian population so to attack the terrorists without what we see as unacceptable collateral is nigh on impossible. We faced a similar problem with al Qaeda and IS in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Ultimately you can't expect a load of beardy islamist terrorists to obligingly line up to be shot by a superior military force. They are going to adopt insurgent/guerilla tactics.

So if Hamas or Hezbollah had the capacity to blow up a block of flats where an IDF commander lived, or Netanyahu or Ben Gvir or Smotrich in their own home, that would be OK?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

So if Hamas or Hezbollah had the capacity to blow up a block of flats where an IDF commander lived, or Netanyahu or Ben Gvir or Smotrich in their own home, that would be OK?

Sorry Vic, not trying to say either are ok, just that there is a genuine difficulty or even impossibility for Israel to defend itself.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Just listening to the Iranian Supreme Leader who seems to be calling for a ‘Jihad’, addressing this to all Muslim nations.

 

[Vic]

Sorry Vic, not trying to say either are ok, just that there is a genuine difficulty or even impossibility for Israel to defend itself.

Hence the only realistic solution for Israel is a peaceful solution.

Given (globally) the younger generation's lack of sympathy for Israel, this must be in their long-term "existential" interest.

As the idea of Israeli sovereignty from the river to the sea (Netanyahu's party's policy) is unlikely to bring peace, and a "free Palestine" including millions of ex-Israeli Jews is hard to imagine, then two sovereign states is still the only realistic way to a peaceful solution.

Putting aside the historic rights or wrongs of 1948, the illegal settlements are a major cause of the problems, and (for the Palestinians) each is an act of aggression, justifying resistance. October 7th was an atrocity, but there had been many Israeli atrocities over the years. The only real question is whether the cycle of violence and hate, which leads to atrocities and then to thoughts of genocide, can be changed. What is the alternative? It may indeed be genocide, an "us or them" choice.

The scale of damage (which I would put at the feet of the retaliatory policies of Israel) is horrendous, and reconciliation will be commensurately hard, but Ireland and Cyprus are examples where people can live relatively normally after divisions (of land and philosophy) and after atrocities.

Back to the start. Who wants a peaceful solution?

 

[paulchapo]

Just listening to the Iranian Supreme Leader who seems to be calling for a ‘Jihad’, addressing this to all Muslim nations.

Against who? Israel? America? Britain? France? The whole of the West?

 

[Palerider]

The thing is they (Israel) do have every right to defend themselves and have the military capacity to do so. Unfortunately hamas and Hezbollah are entwined within the (innocent) civilian population so to attack the terrorists without what we see as unacceptable collateral is nigh on impossible. We faced a similar problem with al Qaeda and IS in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Ultimately you can't expect a load of beardy islamist terrorists to obligingly line up to be shot by a superior military force. They are going to adopt insurgent/guerilla tactics.

Perfectly summed up I think. Israel would 100% prefer to meet Hamas and Hezbollah on a battlefield where they could then just kill 'legitimate' targets. Hamas and Hezbollah much prefer the situation where they use their own people as human shields. The problem then becomes 'How can Israel defend itself and protect it's own innocents effectively without killing other innocents?"

 

[Ducado]

Thanks for the patronizing lesson about peace and living together. Maybe you should mention that the next time your son or daughter is slaughtered at a music festival.

Kumbya and all that, but get real.

Is war working? Is Israel living in peace and security? does indiscriminate killing of Arabs even the slate for you, would it be ok for Afghanistan to bomb Chicago for the the slaughter of Afghans by American forces and lets not forgot the Iraqis as or a bit further back the Vietnamese, that's where your argument is leading to, an eye for an eye as long as it's not your eyes that are being taken out

The last thing anyone needs is cheer leaders who's experience of war is from the cinema

Do you think that any side is going to be victorious? Last I seen Hamas was still entrenched in the rubble of Gaza, Hezbollah has repelled the ground invasions and as an insurgent army they are probably one of the best in the world, so we are looking at years and years of war, war that would destroy Israel's economy for what?

All that needs to happen is a meaningful ceasefire and proper talks on establishing a state for the Palestinians, I can guarantee that everyone would stop fighting, and stop the brutal oppression on the West bank it's making things a hell of lot worse for everyone including the Americans

The damage this is doing to the pychie of Israel is huge, it is becoming a pariah state in the world, and that matters a immensely to them, there has always been a longing to be accepted kind of like a bridge between the Middle East and Europe, they feel isolated now, no longer welcome in most of the world include in sports and cultural events, it can't go on like this and it's sad that there are people cheering them on

 

[The blue phantom]

Perfectly summed up I think. Israel would 100% prefer to meet Hamas and Hezbollah on a battlefield where they could then just kill 'legitimate' targets. Hamas and Hezbollah much prefer the situation where they use their own people as human shields. The problem then becomes 'How can Israel defend itself and protect it's own innocents effectively without killing other innocents?"

Let me ask you this, What do you want the Palestinians to do to stop the Occupation and theft of their land. Serious question, How.do they do it?