Middle East Conflict

[gordondaviesmoustache]

They're on a par with Russia, they're a terrorist state. Most evil country in the world is hard to qualify, because again, there are different types of evil.

But the Israeli government are evil bastards; fortunately I'm a firm believer in evil bastards getting their comeuppance.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said there.

It wasn’t me that started dishing titles out.

 

[inbetween]

So was Sinwar the big chief or his he just another leader or his he the head of the snake.

He was previously directing Hamas operations within Gaza but Gaza is in ruins, he has probably done nothing but hide for the last year, he isn't Bin Laden hiding in a cave with a sophisticated network of communications. So hardly head of the snake, it's more punishment for orchestrating 7/10. Hamas are now almost equivalent to a few hundred kids running around taking pop shots with small arms.

It took the Americans 20 years to get Bin Laden, it took 6-7 years to almost eliminate ISIS and they fought but never ultimately defeated the Taliban. It has taken Israel just one year to obliterate Hamas and wipe out their leader. This is the difference in sophistication and scale.

But then again, western military doctrine is to avoid civilian casualties. With Israel it is different given they have levelled an entire city and its population to achieve it so maybe that's why they've had so much success...

It is a hollow victory because the root cause of why Hamas came to exist still exists. They won't rise again in Gaza but the same sentiment will exist elsewhere. The only way this sentiment can be isolated is if Israel comes to the table of peace.

 

[cucumberman]

Why is there never a thirst for dialogue or a wish to negotiate a lasting peace?

Death cult in getting what it wishes shocker.

Not a certainty if he was pro two-state solution in the early 1980s before his Majd, but he was grown up as a child to adulthood in the refugee camp since after his parents and family’s home got evicted from North Gaza (now Ashkelon) during the Nakba.

 

[cucumberman]

Nice he got his wish.

I guess so. He did have an upbringing that was in difficult circumstances.

His family was from Majdal. The town that was forcibly taken over by Israel. There were 9,910 Palestinians in Majdal community of Islam, Jewish, Christian and Druze identities. All were displaced out and their homes demolished. Majdal town was one of the 102 communities displaced by Israel soldiers and built over with new settlements (overall 499 towns and 1196 known mixed communities displaced).

Sinwar grew up in refugee camps impoverished. His clothes were gunny sacks sown together. It is perhaps why he founded Majd, the precursor to Hamas.

Maybe Majd is in reference to his birthplace the displaced town Majdal?

 

[robbieh]

I guess so. He did have an upbringing that was in difficult circumstances.

His family was from Majdal. The town that was forcibly taken over by Israel. There were 9,910 Palestinians in Majdal community of Islam, Jewish, Christian and Druze identities. All were displaced out and their homes demolished. Majdal town was one of the 102 communities displaced by Israel soldiers and built over with new settlements (overall 499 towns and 1196 known mixed communities displaced).

Sinwar grew up in refugee camps impoverished. His clothes were gunny sacks sown together. It is perhaps why he founded Majd, the precursor to Hamas.

Maybe Majd is in reference to his birthplace the displaced town Majdal?

The corollary of this, is that the last year for Gazans is probably worse than anything he experienced as a child, and therefore there will be no shortage of Sinwars in the future.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I guess so. He did have an upbringing that was in difficult circumstances.

His family was from Majdal. The town that was forcibly taken over by Israel. There were 9,910 Palestinians in Majdal community of Islam, Jewish, Christian and Druze identities. All were displaced out and their homes demolished. Majdal town was one of the 102 communities displaced by Israel soldiers and built over with new settlements (overall 499 towns and 1196 known mixed communities displaced).

Sinwar grew up in refugee camps impoverished. His clothes were gunny sacks sown together. It is perhaps why he founded Majd, the precursor to Hamas.

Maybe Majd is in reference to his birthplace the displaced town Majdal?

There are millions of Jews, in Israel and other countries whose roots were in places like Baghdad, Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Tehran, Tunis, Warsaw, Berlin, Lvov, Kiev Odessa, Salonika, Budapest and thousands of other places who were (at best) displaced virtually penniless or were brutally murdered.

None of them are living in refugee camps waging terrorist campaigns against the people who displaced them. None of them are demanding a right of return to those places. Probably because it's part of the peripatetic history of Jews since the earliest times, they just accepted it and moved on.

Yet countries like Iran, Yemen and Syria seem determined to displace Jews from the country they displaced them to in the first place.

Why did the Arab countries refuse to integrate the Palestinians displaced in 1948? Because it suited them to use them as pawns in their beef against Israel is the answer.

Why did Jordan not set up a separate Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967? Because they saw the West Bank as Jordanian territory is the answer. And when the PLO decided they were a law unto themselves in Jordan, Hussein massacred and expelled them.

The Arab nations had no interest in a two-state solution when they could have implemented this themselves, they only became interested when it was Israel's problem.

You can blame both sides for their intransigence in more recent years and it's been the bad luck of the Palestinians in Gaza that they were under the control of an extremist, anti-Israel terror group that has no regard for their lives and safety, and which made a fatal miscalculation last October. And on the other side they are faced with an extremist right-wing Israeli government who equally has little regard for their lives and safety.

But you can't ignore the history. There are lots of 'what ifs'. The former Israeli foreign minister Abba Evan summed it up: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The corollary of this, is that the last year for Gazans is probably worse than anything he experienced as a child, and therefore there will be no shortage of Sinwars in the future.

And whose fault was that?

 

[grunge]

And whose fault was that?

Fault really is irrelevant to it. the current actions of Israel may well make things better for themselves short term but long term has made things far worse.

Its the catch 22 of the situation. When you are fighting against a group(s) that has no issues with martyrdom then creating more people willing to martyr themselves later isn't a winning strategy long term. the only winning strategy is to make people less likely to martyr themselves or want to fight long term.

 

[robbieh]

And whose fault was that?

My point is that this carnage is counter productive for Israel.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Fault really is irrelevant to it. the current actions of Israel may well make things better for themselves short term but long term has made things far worse.

Its the catch 22 of the situation. When you are fighting against a group(s) that has no issues with martyrdom then creating more people willing to martyr themselves later isn't a winning strategy long term. the only winning strategy is to make people less likely to martyr themselves or want to fight long term.

I disagree that fault is irrelevant. What did Sinwar think a right-wing Israeli led by a man who only had his own self-interest and political survival (which was by no means certain then) at heart was going to do in reaction to the events of October 7th?

And when they did it, he hid in tunnels while the people he supposedly represented died above him in their thousands.