Middle East Conflict

[grunge]

I disagree that fault is irrelevant. What did Sinwar think a right-wing Israeli led by a man who only had his own self-interest and political survival (which was by no means certain then) at heart was going to do in reaction to the events of October 7th?

And when they did it, he hid in tunnels while the people he supposedly represented died above him in their thousands.

Still doesn't change the fact that things are being made worse long term by Israel's response to it does it?

Do you think the 100's of thousands of people in the area that have lost loved ones/Relations are just going to think "well it was Sinwar's" fault so thats all good then? or do you think they are going to blame Israel and form even more anger going forward?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

My point is that this carnage is counter productive for Israel.

And that's entirely their fault.

Ric said that there are people in this thread who are wholly in one camp or the other, and incapable of seeing any of the other side of the argument.

Last October lit the blue touch paper, which you have to accept was Hamas' fault. If you can't accept that it was, and that it was a cynical act and a major strategic calculation, then you're clearly one of those people.

 

[robbieh]

And that's entirely their fault.

Ric said that there are people in this thread who are wholly in one camp or the other, and incapable of seeing any of the other side of the argument.

Last October lit the blue touch paper, which you have to accept was Hamas' fault. If you can't accept that it was, and that it was a cynical act and a major strategic calculation, then you're clearly one of those people.

I agree Hamas kicked off the Israelis retaliation but you might want to read this to understand why.

Countdown to genocide: the year before October 7 - JVP

Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has always been Israeli policy. Here, we present a brief history of the past year.

www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I agree Hamas kicked off the Israelis retaliation but you might want to read this to understand why.

Countdown to genocide: the year before October 7 - JVP

Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has always been Israeli policy. Here, we present a brief history of the past year.

www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

I understand the frustration of the Palestinians totally.

But I don't understand why Sinwar insisted that a massacre and taking of hostages was going to improve their situation.

 

[Pedestrian]

He was previously directing Hamas operations within Gaza but Gaza is in ruins, he has probably done nothing but hide for the last year, he isn't Bin Laden hiding in a cave with a sophisticated network of communications. So hardly head of the snake, it's more punishment for orchestrating 7/10. Hamas are now almost equivalent to a few hundred kids running around taking pop shots with small arms.

It took the Americans 20 years to get Bin Laden, it took 6-7 years to almost eliminate ISIS and they fought but never ultimately defeated the Taliban. It has taken Israel just one year to obliterate Hamas and wipe out their leader. This is the difference in sophistication and scale.

But then again, western military doctrine is to avoid civilian casualties. With Israel it is different given they have levelled an entire city and its population to achieve it so maybe that's why they've had so much success...

It is a hollow victory because the root cause of why Hamas came to exist still exists. They won't rise again in Gaza but the same sentiment will exist elsewhere. The only way this sentiment can be isolated is if Israel comes to the table of peace.

This reads like you’ve no clue.

 

[cucumberman]

There are millions of Jews, in Israel and other countries whose roots were in places like Baghdad, Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Tehran, Tunis, Warsaw, Berlin, Lvov, Kiev Odessa, Salonika, Budapest and thousands of other places who were (at best) displaced virtually penniless or were brutally murdered.

None of them are living in refugee camps waging terrorist campaigns against the people who displaced them. None of them are demanding a right of return to those places. Probably because it's part of the peripatetic history of Jews since the earliest times, they just accepted it and moved on.

Yet countries like Iran, Yemen and Syria seem determined to displace Jews from the country they displaced them to in the first place.

Why did the Arab countries refuse to integrate the Palestinians displaced in 1948? Because it suited them to use them as pawns in their beef against Israel is the answer.

Why did Jordan not set up a separate Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967? Because they saw the West Bank as Jordanian territory is the answer. And when the PLO decided they were a law unto themselves in Jordan, Hussein massacred and expelled them.

The Arab nations had no interest in a two-state solution when they could have implemented this themselves, they only became interested when it was Israel's problem.

You can blame both sides for their intransigence in more recent years and it's been the bad luck of the Palestinians in Gaza that they were under the control of an extremist, anti-Israel terror group that has no regard for their lives and safety, and which made a fatal miscalculation last October. And on the other side they are faced with an extremist right-wing Israeli government who equally has little regard for their lives and safety.

But you can't ignore the history. There are lots of 'what ifs'. The former Israeli foreign minister Abba Evan summed it up: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

Before you conflate Jews as all-for-one, do consider that like Muslims, Jews have different sects too.

Remember the Zionist Federation of Germany who collaborated with early Adolf Hitler and early Nazism Germany in the early 1930s, of Germany owning its supreme motherland and Jews owning its Promised Land. The Zionist Federation longed for the return to the Promised Land, and conjured the Haavara Agreement. Led by Jabotinsky, the Zionist Federation even minted coins that depicted the State of Israel, one side with the Star of David, the other with the Swastika. The Nazi Germany represented by Adolf Eichmann went to Palestine visited by the Zionist Federation to convince Nazi Germany in assisting Zionist the mass migration to Palestine overcoming the British army in Palestine. The first Israel mass migration ship, the SS Tel Aviv hoisted on its mast a large Swastika flag.

Do understand that the Revisionist Zionist of Germany DO NOT represent the native Palestine Jews.

And if Haavara Agreement and the Germany army was not enough to defeat British army, the offshoot Zionist Federation that is in Italy, called the Revisionist Zionist of Italy, colluded with Mussolini and Fascist Italy. The Revisionist Zionist of Italy founded a military arm called Betar by Zionist Jews. Betar army wore fatigues that had embroided stitches representing Fascism. And the Zionist Revisionist Italy and Betar papered posters on the streets of Italy promoting Fascism.

Again, these two Revisionist Zionists DO NOT represent true Jews. Jabotinsky established Likud.
What are the extreme sects that were inspired by Likud? Kach.
What is the party that Netanyahu is under? Likud Party.

The Labour Party of Israel is far better and pragmatic. They have been served as the most decorated soldiers in defending Israel, but also the ones opting for two-state solution and the denouncement of Israel settlements in Palestine and Lebanon. Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak are the two who were pro Oslo Accord.

Again, not all Jews are Zionists.

 

[Pedestrian]

There are millions of Jews, in Israel and other countries whose roots were in places like Baghdad, Cairo, Alexandria, Damascus, Tehran, Tunis, Warsaw, Berlin, Lvov, Kiev Odessa, Salonika, Budapest and thousands of other places who were (at best) displaced virtually penniless or were brutally murdered.

None of them are living in refugee camps waging terrorist campaigns against the people who displaced them. None of them are demanding a right of return to those places. Probably because it's part of the peripatetic history of Jews since the earliest times, they just accepted it and moved on.

Yet countries like Iran, Yemen and Syria seem determined to displace Jews from the country they displaced them to in the first place.

Why did the Arab countries refuse to integrate the Palestinians displaced in 1948? Because it suited them to use them as pawns in their beef against Israel is the answer.

Why did Jordan not set up a separate Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967? Because they saw the West Bank as Jordanian territory is the answer. And when the PLO decided they were a law unto themselves in Jordan, Hussein massacred and expelled them.

The Arab nations had no interest in a two-state solution when they could have implemented this themselves, they only became interested when it was Israel's problem.

You can blame both sides for their intransigence in more recent years and it's been the bad luck of the Palestinians in Gaza that they were under the control of an extremist, anti-Israel terror group that has no regard for their lives and safety, and which made a fatal miscalculation last October. And on the other side they are faced with an extremist right-wing Israeli government who equally has little regard for their lives and safety.

But you can't ignore the history. There are lots of 'what ifs'. The former Israeli foreign minister Abba Evan summed it up: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

The history is a problem. There doesn’t seem to be an answer. Bibi and trump will take you closer to destruction. Be well.

 

[The blue phantom]

The main fault is the occupation and theft of land. You're never sorting anything out until this problem is addressed.

 

[grunge]

I understand the frustration of the Palestinians totally.

But I don't understand why Sinwar insisted that a massacre and taking of hostages was going to improve their situation.

I don’t think that was the plan at all. I think the plan was to get a response so harsh from Israel that neighbouring states join in.

I also still believe ( no real evidence ) that Russia helped plan Oct 7th as Middle East instability helps them and I don’t believe Hamas could go from what they were to a well coordinated multi pronged assault like that over night.

All in all I believe what is happening is the plan.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

And that's entirely their fault.

Ric said that there are people in this thread who are wholly in one camp or the other, and incapable of seeing any of the other side of the argument.

Last October lit the blue touch paper, which you have to accept was Hamas' fault. If you can't accept that it was, and that it was a cynical act and a major strategic calculation, then you're clearly one of those people.

Last October did not light the blue touch paper, it merely escalated it, Israel was already bombing schools and hospitals, October just gave the excuse for the genocidal war criminals to steal more land, if you want to blame Hamas do so, but Palestinians already had more babies die at the hands of Israel, than those that died on October the 7th