Middle East Conflict

He's right though. Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Saudi, the states that became the UAE, all came about because the British and French drew lines in the sand and gave the countries they created to their mates. The borders of Iraq paid no heed to ethnic or tribal considerations and the British imposed a Hashemite king on the new country.

The Hashemites were the historic keepers of the sacred Muslim sites in what's now Saudi Arabia but lost out to the Saud. As a consolation they were handed Jordan and Iraq.
 
....

As someone who knows his history, you'll be aware that similar events took place on the Indian sub-continent the previous year. Tens of millions were displaced and probably a million murdered in communal violence that pitted Hindus against Muslims. Yet no one is screaming for those Pakistani Muslims of Indian descent to go back, or the Hindus who were displaced from what's now Pakistan. The Saud tribe became the rulers of Sa Arabia by wars and conquest, even up to the mid 1920's. Why is no one calling for the tribes they conquered and subdued to be given their land back? Why are the Palestinians seen as a special case among the world's refugees?

Yet Jews wanted a "right of return" after 1700 years...

I hesitate to say these things don't happen in a vacuum (and it's obviously just one view by a visitor) but:


In all things it is our custom to learn nothing from the past for the future. There is certainly one thing we could have learned from our past and present history: how careful we must be not to arouse the anger of other people against ourselves by reprehensible conduct. How much more, then, should we be careful, in our conduct toward a foreign people among whom we live once again, to walk together in love and respect, and needless to say in justice and righteousness. And what do our brethren in Eretz Israel do? Quite the opposite! They were slaves in their land of exile, and they suddenly find themselves with unlimited freedom, the kind of wild freedom to be found only in a country like Turkey. This sudden change has engendered in them an impulse to despotism, as always happens when "a slave becomes a king," and behold they walk with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, unjustly encroaching on them, shamefully beating them for no good reason*, and even bragging about what they do, and there is no one to stand in the breach and call a halt to this dangerous and despicable impulse. To be sure our people are correct in saying that the Arab respects only those who demonstrate strength and courage, but this is relevant only when he feels that his rival is acting justly; it is not the case if there is reason to think his rival's actions are oppressive and unjust. Then, even if he restrains himself and remains silent forever, the rage will remain in his heart and he is unrivaled in "taking vengeance and bearing a grudge.” (Truth From Eretz Israel, by Ahad Ha'am, 1891)

* There's a different translation in wikipedia that says "offend without cause" rather than "shamefully beating"

[Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginzberg, 1856-1927) is one of early Zionism's most-cited references. It is regarded as a milestone in Zionist thought and in Ahad Ha'am's own role in the movement, and even, more notably, as the first serious analysis of "the Arab issue," which was eventually to dominate the history of Zionism and of the state of Israel (intro by Alan Dowty to his translation from the Hebrew EMET M'ERETZ YISRAEL")]

Born in what’s now Ukraine (the Pale of Settlement), he was very critical of aspects of Zionism, having visited Palestine several times. He spoke of “the indolence of the Arabs” but was as scathing about Jewish speculators “after great profit for little work”, buying up “stony and sandy land” (often from the Arab owners) but then don’t want to "till soil which yields so little". Instead “there appears a kind of stock-exchange speculation, under the banner: Get Rich or Die!” This bit explains something about commercial transactions with Arabs but has a sting in the tail:

“The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future. Therefore they try to exploit us as well, to extract some benefit from the new visitors as long as they can. Yet they mock us in their hearts. The farmers are happy to have a new Hebrew colony founded in their midst since they receive a good wage for their labour and get wealthier from year to year, as experience shows; and the owners of large properties are also happy with us, since we pay them a huge price - more than they dreamed possible – for stony and sandy land. However, if the time comes when the life of in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place...”
 
That’s the last thing they want, Iran could close the gulf shipping lanes if it wanted and would if it were attacked which would throw the west into a massive economic crisis

Plus in order to defeat Iran they would have to invade Iran, the population dislikes the Mullahs in power, but they are fiercely nationalistic and bombing them would just make the Mullahs more powerful

I don’t see any appetite from the Americans to get involved in another ground war in the Middle East

Yet Jews wanted a "right of return" after 1700 years...

I hesitate to say these things don't happen in a vacuum (and it's obviously just one view by a visitor) but:


In all things it is our custom to learn nothing from the past for the future. There is certainly one thing we could have learned from our past and present history: how careful we must be not to arouse the anger of other people against ourselves by reprehensible conduct. How much more, then, should we be careful, in our conduct toward a foreign people among whom we live once again, to walk together in love and respect, and needless to say in justice and righteousness. And what do our brethren in Eretz Israel do? Quite the opposite! They were slaves in their land of exile, and they suddenly find themselves with unlimited freedom, the kind of wild freedom to be found only in a country like Turkey. This sudden change has engendered in them an impulse to despotism, as always happens when "a slave becomes a king," and behold they walk with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, unjustly encroaching on them, shamefully beating them for no good reason*, and even bragging about what they do, and there is no one to stand in the breach and call a halt to this dangerous and despicable impulse. To be sure our people are correct in saying that the Arab respects only those who demonstrate strength and courage, but this is relevant only when he feels that his rival is acting justly; it is not the case if there is reason to think his rival's actions are oppressive and unjust. Then, even if he restrains himself and remains silent forever, the rage will remain in his heart and he is unrivaled in "taking vengeance and bearing a grudge.” (Truth From Eretz Israel, by Ahad Ha'am, 1891)

* There's a different translation in wikipedia that says "offend without cause" rather than "shamefully beating"

[Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginzberg, 1856-1927) is one of early Zionism's most-cited references. It is regarded as a milestone in Zionist thought and in Ahad Ha'am's own role in the movement, and even, more notably, as the first serious analysis of "the Arab issue," which was eventually to dominate the history of Zionism and of the state of Israel (intro by Alan Dowty to his translation from the Hebrew EMET M'ERETZ YISRAEL")]

Born in what’s now Ukraine (the Pale of Settlement), he was very critical of aspects of Zionism, having visited Palestine several times. He spoke of “the indolence of the Arabs” but was as scathing about Jewish speculators “after great profit for little work”, buying up “stony and sandy land” (often from the Arab owners) but then don’t want to "till soil which yields so little". Instead “there appears a kind of stock-exchange speculation, under the banner: Get Rich or Die!” This bit explains something about commercial transactions with Arabs but has a sting in the tail:

“The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future. Therefore they try to exploit us as well, to extract some benefit from the new visitors as long as they can. Yet they mock us in their hearts. The farmers are happy to have a new Hebrew colony founded in their midst since they receive a good wage for their labour and get wealthier from year to year, as experience shows; and the owners of large properties are also happy with us, since we pay them a huge price - more than they dreamed possible – for stony and sandy land. However, if the time comes when the life of in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place...”
Don't copy and paste bull shit against a reasoned argument
 
With a ceasefire seemingly off the table, were does this end? If/when Hamas are incapacitated or in the very unlikely event they surrendered I can't see any going back here. Moving onto to taking down Hezbollah seems inevitable. It seems destined to erupt into a wider conflict.
 
You're someone whose views I respect, even if I don't agree with them, because I know they're genuinely held and without malice. Unlike some on here, who only seem to spout bile.

We could do the tit-for-tat 'they started it' routine probably going back to the Babylonian conquest. The Zionist militias didn't start in a vacuum but as a response to Arab terror, etc, etc. The British sergeants were hung in retribution for the hanging of three Irgun members. And yes, those three were terrorists.

All the events in the awful recent history of that part of the world have a cause. Some sympathetic to the Palestinian cause blame "mass" Jewish immigration (there wasn't) iforcthoaexArab riots n the early part of the 20th century. Yet the same people, like yourself, rightly decry our government's attitude to immigration by people desperate to escape war, poverty and discrimination. So you see why I accuse people of hypocrisy. You can't claim Arab unrest in Mandatory Palestine was justified while simultaneously shouting down Braverman and the Daily Mail.

Whether there was ever a realistic alternative to partition is a debate that's been had on here and I doubt there's any disagreement that there wasn't in the circumstances. Neither side would accept any of the alternatives put forward. Of course the ideal outcome was a secular state where everyone was free to practice their religion, or none at all. Where Jews, Muslims, Christians and others worked together for their common good. But that was never going to be accepted so we ended up with partition and, at that point, no one had forced anyone out of anywhere to any significant degree.

As someone who knows his history, you'll be aware that similar events took place on the Indian sub-continent the previous year. Tens of millions were displaced and probably a million murdered in communal violence that pitted Hindus against Muslims. Yet no one is screaming for those Pakistani Muslims of Indian descent to go back, or the Hindus who were displaced from what's now Pakistan. The Saud tribe became the rulers of Sa Arabia by wars and conquest, even up to the mid 1920's. Why is no one calling for the tribes they conquered and subdued to be given their land back? Why are the Palestinians seen as a special case among the world's refugees?

Very few are even aware that, alongside the Nakba, a similar number of Jews were displaced from Arab and North African countries, where they'd had well-established communities. That was the direct result of Arab irregular militias and regular armies attacking the newly formed state of Israel. Everything today flows from that refusal to accept partition and the failed attempt to wipe out Israel. The Arab riots of 1920 and the 1936-1939 revolt, the Irgun and Lehi, the massacres at Deir Yassin and the equally brutal Hadassah Medical convoy, they're just all white noise in this sorry saga.
Wonderful response Colin.
 
So, once the Hamas militants are destroyed, do Israel intend to feed and rehouse the remainder of the Gaza population? Or just let them survive in their walled lands? The end game is death. Or regional war. Or an assassination on their own leader. Or. Flip knows what. Too grim. Bleaker than an invasion for suspected WMDs.
 

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