Middle East Conflict

[BlueNomad]

Right now Smotrich is in a very real sense Israel, as he, Ben Gvir, Gallant, and many other Kahanists and extreme Zionists control the Israeli government and military, and thus the higher functions of the Israeli political machine (policy and domestic action), the military (Gaza), and the paramilitary (West Bank).

Netanyahu, in his endless quest to remain in power and avoid accountability, is for most intents and purposes a puppet PM, doing whatever the war cabinet and his far right flank demand he do (at the the threat of ouster), as we are seeing with the ramping up of operations in Gaza right now) and their overall brutal and cruel tactics. For example, as of now they have issued evacuation orders for most of Gaza, whilst increasing bombing of nearly all areas. The far right regime know very well this means millions of Palestinians have literally nowhere safe to go; the cruelty is by design.

It is unsophisticated to argue that somehow those that effectively control the Israel government are somehow independent of the actions of it.

He is a politician playing to his base during a time of war. He does not control the narrative of the war, even if he has an opinion and a seat at the table.

It’s funny how the elected terrorist group doesn’t speak for the Palestinians, but one guy suddenly speaks for Israel.

And those Palestinians beating and desecrating the dead bodies being dragged through the streets last October? Or beating the hostages with sticks as they drove by? Innocent citizens of Palestine?

If you don’t believe that every Palestinian would take up arms against Israel, if they had the weapons, then I’m not sure what common ground we share.

Israel faces the threat of genocidal desires from all sides, all day, every day. When Hamas crossed the border on 10/7, they made a calculation. Israel is trying to disavow them of that calculation, all while taking a DIRECT ATTACK FROM IRAN and incessant proxy attacks from Hezbollah and Hamas.

In that environment, the ONLY type of politician that gets elected is one that says they will do anything and everything to protect the State of Israel and its citizens and, since 10/7, that had meant getting every hostage back from a terrorist organization that lives in tunnels and tries to melt into the general population (in violation of the basic tenets of war) as soon as they’re under close attack.

Has every death in this conflict been an enemy combatant? No, War is hell and can be imprecise in the fog it creates, and possibly in bringing extreme violence to those caught up in it.

Should populations be starved to death? No. War might be hell but there should be an unambiguous morality that prevents that. Its effectiveness is certainly being tested.

But, if my son or daughter was still being held by Hamas, I know exactly how I would feel and the lengths to which I would go to save them and I have no doubt many of you would feel the same way.

 

[inbetween]

There is another significant difference and that is that Israel claims to be a democracy. It is a dubious claim but, if they are a democracy, the response to terrorism needs to be much more circumspect. A scorched earth policy should not happen.

Israel is a democracy in the sense that it holds free and fair elections and elects a government. The sentiment that Israel is not a democracy because of scorched earth is ridiculously misplaced given not a single government north or east of Israel has an elected government or could even remotely be regarded as a functioning democracy.

Why is Israel held to an exceptional standard compared to the awful regimes around them who want to obliterate them? A sizeable number of these governments want to bring war upon Israel however they just lack the means to do it.

Israel neighbours Syria for example, do you think that the Syrian people have enjoyed being barrel bombed by Assad, why didn't they just vote him out? What about Iranians who are shot for protesting against their government, the same government which is tip-toeing around bringing war to Israel?

 

[SebastianBlue]

He is a politician playing to his base during a time of war. He does not control the narrative of the war, even if he has an opinion and a seat at the table.

It’s funny how the elected terrorist group doesn’t speak for the Palestinians, but one guy suddenly speaks for Israel.

And those Palestinians beating and desecrating the dead bodies being dragged through the streets last October? Or beating the hostages with sticks as they drove by? Innocent citizens of Palestine?

If you don’t believe that every Palestinian would take up arms against Israel, if they had the weapons, then I’m not sure what common ground we share.

Israel faces the threat of genocidal desires from all sides, all day, every day. When Hamas crossed the border on 10/7, they made a calculation. Israel is trying to disavow them of that calculation, all while taking a DIRECT ATTACK FROM IRAN and incessant proxy attacks from Hezbollah and Hamas.

In that environment, the ONLY type of politician that gets elected is one that says they will do anything and everything to protect the State of Israel and its citizens and, since 10/7, that had meant getting every hostage back from a terrorist organization that lives in tunnels and tries to melt into the general population (in violation of the basic tenets of war) as soon as they’re under close attack.

Has every death in this conflict been an enemy combatant? No, War is hell and can be imprecise in the fog it creates, and possibly in bringing extreme violence to those caught up in it.

Should populations be starved to death? No. War might be hell but there should be an unambiguous morality that prevents that. Its effectiveness is certainly being tested.

But, if my son or daughter was still being held by Hamas, I know exactly how I would feel and the lengths to which I would go to save them and I have no doubt many of you would feel the same way.

So, your position is essentially everything Israel has done and is doing in response to the 7 October attacks is justified, including collective punishment of Palestinians, rendering Gaza incompatible for long term habitation, forced displacement and annexation of property/land in the West Bank, and support of paramilitary operations against Palestinians across the occupied territories?

By the way, I never said Smotrich speaks for all Israelis. I indicated he and the other far right ministers, military leaders, and coalition MKs are effectively the state of Israel at present. Whereas, Hamas is most definitely not the state of Palestine (primarily because there is no state of Palestine).

If you cannot acknowledge that, then I agree we have no common ground.

As far as your statement about how far you would go to get your loved ones back or avenge their brutal killing, it rings a bit false to me personally given I have family and friends actually impacted by the 7 October attacks. And one of the principles of a fair and equitable justice system is that victims do not get to determine guilt or punishment of those alleged to have committed crimes. You seem to want to ignore that principle in favour of some pretty dark, horrific acts of retribution (or vengeance) which are completely at odds with fundamental principles of justice and international law.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Why is Israel held to an exceptional standard compared to the awful regimes around them who want to obliterate them?

Wow. Read what you wrote and think about the implications of it.

 

[BlueNomad]

So, your position is essentially everything Israel has done and is doing in response to the 7 October attacks is justified, including collective punishment of Palestinians, rendering Gaza incompatible for long term habitation, forced displacement and annexation of property/land in the West Bank, and support of paramilitary operations against Palestinians across the occupied territories?

By the way, I never said Smotrich speaks for all Israelis. I indicated he and the other far right ministers, military leaders, and coalition MKs are effectively the state of Israel at present. Whereas, Hamas is most definitely not the state of Palestine (primarily because there is no state of Palestine).

If you cannot acknowledge that, then I agree we have no common ground.

As far as your statement about how far you would go to get your loved ones back or avenge their brutal killing, it rings a bit false to me personally given I have family and friends actually impacted by the 7 October attacks. And one of the principles of a fair and equitable justice system is that victims do not get to determine guilt or punishment of those alleged to have committed crimes. You seem to want to ignore that principle in favour of some pretty dark, horrific acts of retribution (or vengeance) which are completely at odds with fundamental principles of justice and international law.

Again, you have attributed both words and sentiments I have not expressed in your paraphrasing of my position, whilst also extrapolating from that false position into the realm of conjecture and supposition.

I especially “appreciated” your conclusion that I’m a heartless, vengeful monster who…

seem(s) to want to ignore that principle in favour of some pretty dark, horrific acts of retribution (or vengeance) which are completely at odds with fundamental principles of justice and international law.

I guess you substituted “alleged” with “seem” to escape the specter of outright accusation of my desire to paint myself as a budding war criminal!

Thank you???

What I AM thankful for is the ability to speak for myself and not have you as my spokesperson or paraphraser of record. Having been quite specific, my words don’t need paraphrasing unless you need to fit me into the mold you want to use to bash me. It’s a cute construct, but I’d prefer you not do it…especially if you’re doing it to paint me into the corner you attempted above (bonded and italicized to help you spot it!).

You have a nice day. The tyranny of the majority is clearly in complete control of this thread and is tugging on the heartstrings of the blind and ignorant magnificently. I’ll move along knowing who you all are and await your further missives from your oh so morally superior high grounds, albeit from the sidelines.

You’re not going to solve this intractable problem, certainly not with your weak-kneed, lily-livered view of one of the combatants, and I have no desire to be called names or be categorized and caricatured by people who don’t have that privilege, so I’ll leave you and your homies to your Israeli outrage.

I don’t much care what you think at this point, and you certainly don’t care what I think, because you keep changing it to suit the Black Hat character you need for your story.

Take care and let’s all pray for the cessation of hostilities, the eradication of Hamas terrorists and the safe return of all the hostages.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Again, you have attributed both words and sentiments I have not expressed in your paraphrasing of my position, whilst also extrapolating from that false position into the realm of conjecture and supposition.

I especially like your conclusion that I’m a heartless, vengeful monster who…



I’m thankful for the ability to speak for myself and not have you as my spokesperson.

I didn’t attribute anything, I asked you a question.

And you are the one that has repeatedly said “if my son or daughter was still being held by Hamas, I know exactly how I would feel and the lengths to which I would go to save them” in defence of Israel’s response, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume you mean that personal desire for vengeance takes precedent over principles of fair and equitable justice or international law.

If I am mistaken, feel free to disabuse me of my misinterpretation.

 

[BayernMan]

Remember to keep focusing on those pesky kids on college campuses…

 

[BlueNomad]

I didn’t attribute anything, I asked you a question.

And you are the one that has repeatedly said “if my son or daughter was still being held by Hamas, I know exactly how I would feel and the lengths to which I would go to save them” in defence of Israel’s response, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume you mean that personal desire for vengeance takes precedent over principles of fair and equitable justice or international law.

If I am mistaken, feel free to disabuse me of my misinterpretation.

I disabuse you of your misinterpretation.

 

[inbetween]

There are so many bad faith statements, strawman arguments, and reflections of ignorance of the actual current state of affairs in this post it is astounding. And, based on your posts, I am guessing you have never actually been to Israel or Palestine, and have very little understanding of the history leading to the current dynamics, nor direct experience with the experience of Palestinians or Israelis.

In light of that, I don’t think there is any reason to continue to engage with you, as many of us have tried to do in the past.

Your entire post can be summarised as “yeah, Israel are committing genocide, but Hamas would do it, as well, if they could, so all is fair in love and war.”

And you seemingly have no issue with that faulty reasoning.

I'm sorry if not living in Israel or Palestine disqualifies me from posting on here?

It isn't a strawman argument because surely you must recognise the existential threat to Israel from others in that region. Others have massively escalated their rhetoric and war against Israel however they aren't doing that out of solidarity with the Palestinian people, they're doing it because they're against the existence of Israel.

The Palestinian people unfortunately put their future in the hands of a violent proxy army which is supported by those countries and therefore they became linked to that game of geopolitical chess. Netanyahu has certainly taken advantage of that but it's hard to see how it can be reversed given the current state of things.

The west for example is not going to harshly intervene to damage Israel's military abilities whilst Israel is being attacked. If those actors were not attacking Israel (or the west itself!!) then it would be a different story. This is why I think it is stupid not to question the intentions of Iran or the Houthis in Yemen given they're explicitly linked and exacerbating the problem.

 

[inbetween]

Wow. Read what you wrote and think about the implications of it.

Why is it not true?

Israel could only really be held to a higher regard by the west however the west has always chosen western interests above all else. We don't exactly have the best track record when it comes to interventionism and colonialism for example.

Let's face it there is a distinct lack of any moral authority in this world!

 

[KS55]

Yes I do.

you can attack me as much as you like, it’s very much par for the course on this forum and debates like this where you don’t join the groupthink but the poster was correct in my opinion.

What does it mean, then. Putin was elected by a democratic vote as much as Hamas was. Is Russia a democracy?
Democracy is not defined by a democratic vote but by the rule of law, not something which Israel has ever aspired to. Your version of a democratic vote (ie what Hamas held) is very wobbly.
PS I am not attacking anybody, rather trying to find out what is the basis for your argument. You have made a massive assumption about my position, which I have not mentioned!

 

[inbetween]

What does it mean, then. Putin was elected by a democratic vote as much as Hamas was. Is Russia a democracy?
Democracy is not defined by a democratic vote but by the rule of law, not something which Israel has ever aspired to. Your version of a democratic vote (ie what Hamas held) is very wobbly.
PS I am not attacking anybody, rather trying to find out what is the basis for your argument. You have made a massive assumption about my position, which I have not mentioned!

Any poll would show that the Palestinians (in Gaza at least) are mostly in favour of Hamas which for the reference of others is designated as a terrorist organisation within the UK and is an organisation itself accused of war crimes.

When we talk of this position on war crimes you only have to look at how the UN views Hamas. This is the vote on whether to condemn the actions of Hamas or not historically and note the position of peace merchants such as South Africa. To find out who condemns the actions of Israel then essentially just flip this in reverse.

There is zero moral authority on this issue, least of all democratic countries.

 

[KS55]

Any poll would show that the Palestinians (in Gaza at least) are mostly in favour of Hamas which for the reference of others is designated as a terrorist organisation within the UK and is an organisation itself accused of war crimes.

When we talk of this position on war crimes you only have to look at how the UN views Hamas. This is the vote on whether to condemn the actions of Hamas or not historically and note the position of peace merchants such as South Africa. To find out who condemns the actions of Israel then essentially just flip this in reverse.

There is zero moral authority on this issue, least of all democratic countries.

Why are you telling me this? I already know. Despite a massive assumption by someone, I have never expressed, nor would I, support for Hamas. I have, however, been massively critical of Israel for many years, long before the current conflict. My criticism stems from their abject failure to observe the rule of law since 1945/48. It is counter productive and will prolong the conflict indefinitely. Those Palestinians who wave their house keys at the border do have a point. The confiscation/ theft of Arab property in Israel will never be righted in Israeli courts. The victims of forcible occupation of their property also lose their vote. What compensation did the people of the Moroccan quarter get when their home were bulldozed at three days notice? I could go on, but you get the point: Israeli is pissing in the wind asking Arabs to obey a set of laws which they themselves ignore at will.

 

[BlueNomad]

Democracy is not defined by a democratic vote but by the rule of law, not something which Israel has ever aspired to.

I’ll state that you have made quite a statement there!

A comedian might ask “Then, why so many Jewish lawyers?”!!!

A Jew might ask, if Israel was a person, that would be libelous, so as a country does it then just become run of the mill anti-semitism?

 

[KS55]

I’ll state that you have made quite a statement there!

A comedian might ask “Then, why so many Jewish lawyers?”!!!

A Jew might ask, if Israel was a person, that would be libelous, so as a country does it then just become run of the mill anti-semitism?

I gave a few examples at post 13633. I could ask you which UN resolution has any Israeli gov supported or acted upon.
I don’t understand your last sentence, please explain. I hope you are not mixing up Jews with the Israeli gov. My highly orthodox Jewish step mother, god rest her soul, would have your guts for garters. She was no fan of Israeli policy, and taught me well. She believed there would be no peace or security for Israel until it recognised the rights and aspirations of all its inhabitants.

 

[BlueNomad]

I gave a few examples at post 13633. I could ask you which UN resolution has any Israeli gov supported or acted upon.

My apologies for not seeing/responding to that post.

I don’t understand your last sentence, please explain. I hope you are not mixing up Jews with the Israeli gov. My highly orthodox Jewish step mother, god rest her soul, would have your guts for garters. She was no fan of Israeli policy, and taught me well. She believed there would be no peace or security for Israel until it recognised the rights and aspirations of all its inhabitants.

So, Israeli govt not to be mixed up with the Jewish people who elect it or who serve in it?! Got it!

 

[KS55]

My apologies for not seeing/responding to that post.



So, Israeli govt not to be mixed up with the Jewish people who elect it or who serve in it?! Got it!

You should know the difference. As the previous Chief Rabbi wrote: “it is not anti semitic to criticise the Israeli gov.” You might as well say that criticising the British gov is anti British, or criticising the Nigerian gov is racist. You are more intelligent than to make that mistake, surely?
PS. President Trumps gov was awful. Is that anti- American?
PPS. Putin agrees with you and puts people in jail as traitors if they criticise his policy.
Come on, this is basic stuff. Taking the particular as exemplifying the general is just illogical.
Got it?!

 

[BlueNomad]

You should know the difference. As the previous Chief Rabbi wrote: “it is not anti semitic to criticise the Israeli gov.” You might as well say that criticising the British gov is anti British, or criticising the Nigerian gov is racist. You are more intelligent than to make that mistake, surely?
PS. President Trumps gov was awful. Is that anti- American?

I believed I was equating it to a person, as I outlined.

My apologies if I overstepped and certainly had no intention of dishonoring your dear departed stepmother.

Busy morning juggling chainsaws and I should just stay away from incendiary topics without full focus.

 

[KS55]

I believed I was equating it to a person, as I outlined.

My apologies if I overstepped and certainly had no intention of dishonoring your dear departed stepmother.

Busy morning juggling chainsaws and I should just stay away from incendiary topics without full focus.

Next: Why A2 benefits US school children. Put that chainsaw down!

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

My gran used to say they need a big bomb dropping on the whole region. My lefty younger self used to argue with her about it. And stupidly thats exactly where the Israelis are taking this conflict. Maybe not this generation but it will happen soon.