Middle East Conflict

[makinghistory]

Or in 1948 the Arabs understood what claims the Zionists would make, beyond what had been created by terrorism.

Dont understand what you are saying? However again, the Arabs could have had their own state on a much larger and better quality land than the jews but they refused and have been at war ever since. The truth is they dat want ac state they want the destruction of Israel. Thats what it's all about. Jordan had control of the West Bank and Egypt had Gaza. Did they offer them a state then? NO NO NO.

 

[makinghistory]

I'm hearing fuckall off the Labour top brass regarding the Mass Murder taking place. Thing is I'm near certain they'd have the publics support for totally cutting all ties with Israel.

They won't though and are all in with the Yanks. Bastards the lot of them to which History won't forget.

Supporting terrorists that would kill you with no questions asked is the wrong approach mate.

 

[makinghistory]

Should Belgium, Italy and France refuse to play Israel in the Nations League at this stage and if so can UEFA "not punish" the 3 countries on compassionate grounds?

It is crazy to think that any players have to face that flag at this time. Especially anyone who is in any way related to the Palestinian community.

It's crazy to think that if the UK leveled Ireland in the 80s/90s because of the many bombs that the rest of the world would have treated them normally.

Senseless analogy. Israels enemies are the wests enemies. They are in the UK now. Watch this space.

 

[makinghistory]

It’s a horrible thought but very much reminds me of what the Nazi’s did. Forcing people into a distinct area and then killing them from above.

Utterly sick and abhorrent behaviour.

What were your thoughts on Surviving 7/10 documentary ITV4. ? The ppl that committed that genocide are in the UK now. WAKE UP.

 

[makinghistory]

They did not choose suicide bombings etc in 1948. They were forced out of their houses and whole villages disappeared.

The fact that they were never the government matters not. People have the right to self determination.

And your second last sentence suggests that you are coming at this issue from a different angle anyway, where the rule of international law might be secondary to something written in an old book

I agree they do have the right to self determination Every Israeli agrees. The UN gave them that option in 1948. Instead they chose war. Bad decision. The Jews decided to take the offer and built a state. If you research properly it is on record that the Arab nations explicitly told the Arabs living in Palestine to leave their homes and return when certain victory has been achieved. Didn't quite work out like that did it.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Why ceasefire ?? Will mean the terrorists re arm and the conflict is dragged out. Any fool can see that.

Any fool can say it, apparently.

 

[cucumberman]

It's all on Hamas. They hide in their tunnels and leave their ppl to take it. The leaders are billionaires whilst their ppl suffer. Any fool can see this.

Any thoughts on how awful 7/10 was on civilians and how over 60,000 Israeli civilians cannot return home including Arabs and Christians ?

Hezbollah have their fighters next to UNIFIL positions. UNIFIL have been told to move away. They have been there since 2006 and done absolutely nothing to stop Hezbollah taking their positions and building tunnels. CRIMINAL.

Why ceasefire ?? Will mean the terrorists re arm and the conflict is dragged out. Any fool can see that.

The terrorists I Israel are going to defeat will cause havoc in Europe... they hate you, your family, western culture and values. Smell the coffee.

Dont understand what you are saying? However again, the Arabs could have had their own state on a much larger and better quality land than the jews but they refused and have been at war ever since. The truth is they dat want ac state they want the destruction of Israel. Thats what it's all about. Jordan had control of the West Bank and Egypt had Gaza. Did they offer them a state then? NO NO NO.

Supporting terrorists that would kill you with no questions asked is the wrong approach mate.

Senseless analogy. Israels enemies are the wests enemies. They are in the UK now. Watch this space.

What were your thoughts on Surviving 7/10 documentary ITV4. ? The ppl that committed that genocide are in the UK now. WAKE UP.

I agree they do have the right to self determination Every Israeli agrees. The UN gave them that option in 1948. Instead they chose war. Bad decision. The Jews decided to take the offer and built a state. If you research properly it is on record that the Arab nations explicitly told the Arabs living in Palestine to leave their homes and return when certain victory has been achieved. Didn't quite work out like that did it.

Take off your zionist tinted glasses for a minute.

No one here is not condemning Hamas atrocities on the 7th October. That day is atrocious and is undoubtedly a war crime. 1 baby was killed (Mila Cohen) and that is one too many babies. More than 700 civilians were killed in gruesome manner. Many of the cars were bombed and flattened with helicopters, and houses with bazookas and tanks. The whole event was absolutely horrifying and we empathise those killed and those taken as hostages. We, as hostage families, demand for a ceasefire, even if it meant exchange of prisoners.

The ICJ labelled 5 war criminals, 3 of whom are Hamas. They should be tried in the international court (though 2 of them have already been killed).

How about you?

Your multiple posts never once mentioned about the plight of Gazans and Palestinians, not after 7 October, not before 7 October. What are your thoughts of the Gazans?
What are your thoughts about the 2 Israel government reps who ICJ demands to be tried for war crimes?

 

[inbetween]

It is for reasons below. Israel never demands recognition of it's right to exist within the 1967 borders does it? Because it doesn't recognise those borders itself.



Even the 1967 borders are a practical fudge. Because those are not the borders created at partition. Israel demands that everyone has to respect it's right to exist and we accept it was okay for them to take territory and drive Palestinians out. When the children and grandchildren of those Palestinians seek to do the same. They are terrorists but the Hagganah and Irgun weren't.

I am against the Zionist state. I am against Zionism. I don't see any value in idealogies of racial supremacy. Israel isn't going to surrender territory in exchange for peace. It just is going to happen. I regard Israel as the the chief troublemaker in the region. For as long as there is a Zionist Israel there will be wars with their neighbours.

Chomsky on Israel’s ‘Right to Exist’

The other night at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue, Anne Roiphe said that she could have dialogue with anyone except me, because as a non/anti-Zionist, I was denying the right of Israel to exist.

mondoweiss.net

So this isn't a war for the Palestinians, it's a war against the existence of Israel, one that Israel is however plainly winning which you would rather wasn't the case?

I think you've sort of vacated any position to argue for solutions for peace. Continued war is only going to be a death sentence for the Palestinians because Israel will exist.

I believe that Israel should exist but I also believe that Palestine should exist. We must accept this reality and merge the two or accept the other reality which is a lot of people are going to die for either cause.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

So this isn't a war for the Palestinians, it's a war against the existence of Israel, one that Israel is however plainly winning which you would rather wasn't the case?

I think you've sort of vacated any position to argue for solutions for peace. Continued war is only going to be a death sentence for the Palestinians because Israel will exist.

I believe that Israel should exist but I also believe that Palestine should exist. We must accept this reality and merge the two or accept the other reality which is a lot of people are going to die for either cause.

You've taken a position that Israel will never take. Why do you think they'll agree to give away territory when they've spent their entire existence acquiring it and encouraging more immigration ?

Israel is reliant on backing from the USA and history turning in it's favour. It's not given that Israel will always exist, and that it will always exist as a Zionist (Jewish supremacist) state.

Why do you believe Israel should exist? It's continued existence as a Zionist state means that it will never allow a viable Palestinian state or respect the borders of its neighbours. There will always be war.

 

[inbetween]

You've taken a position that Israel will never take. Why do you think they'll agree to give away territory when they've spent their entire existence acquiring it and encouraging more immigration ?

Israel is reliant on backing from the USA and history turning in it's favour. It's not given that Israel will always exist, and that it will always exist as a Zionist (Jewish supremacist) state.

Why do you believe Israel should exist? It's continued existence as a Zionist state means that it will never allow a viable Palestinian state or respect the borders of its neighbours. There will always be war.

The most sensible person would say that there needs to be a settlement as opposed to the obliteration of one or the other whether based upon historic/ideological grounds or not.

The only reason why Israel is acting like it is now is because it has an extremist government. I wouldn't blame it purely on the fact that Israel exists but rather 'how' it exists.

With a different government a settlement and two states may be possible but the dissolution of Israel is just never going to happen. That is the position of virtually the entire of the Middle East who are ready to recognise Israel within the internationally recognised borders, none of them except Iran are calling for Israel to be removed from the map.

If the destruction of Israel is the only option then we may as well just close this thread and as per the rest of human history just let the two fight and see who wins? I don't see where else it can go.

 

[cucumberman]

The most sensible person would say that there needs to be a settlement as opposed to the obliteration of one or the other whether based upon historic/ideological grounds or not.

The only reason why Israel is acting like it is now is because it has an extremist government. I wouldn't blame it purely on the fact that Israel exists but rather 'how' it exists.

With a different government a settlement and two states may be possible but the dissolution of Israel is just never going to happen. That is the position of virtually the entire of the Middle East who are ready to recognise Israel within the internationally recognised borders, none of them except Iran are calling for Israel to be removed from the map.

If the destruction of Israel is the only option then we may as well just close this thread and as per the rest of human history just let the two fight and see who wins? I don't see where else it can go.

The destruction of Israel is too annihilistic. Fire begets fire and there’s no solution.

The option voiced by many who are pro-Palestine and anti-zionist is to alienate Israel, to the point that Israelis realise that the world does not revolve around them.

This is just one of many summation by many political and military analysts of how Israel is at its current state:

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The most sensible person would say that there needs to be a settlement as opposed to the obliteration of one or the other whether based upon historic/ideological grounds or not.

The only reason why Israel is acting like it is now is because it has an extremist government. I wouldn't blame it purely on the fact that Israel exists but rather 'how' it exists.

With a different government a settlement and two states may be possible but the dissolution of Israel is just never going to happen. That is the position of virtually the entire of the Middle East who are ready to recognise Israel within the internationally recognised borders, none of them except Iran are calling for Israel to be removed from the map.

If the destruction of Israel is the only option then we may as well just close this thread and as per the rest of human history just let the two fight and see who wins? I don't see where else it can go.

When did Israel last have a government that wasn't extremist?

Israel is such an extreme society that they assassinated their own prime minister when he pledged to strike a peace deal.

How it exists is an extremist society based on the idea of racial supremacy. They aren't likely to relinquish that foundational idea. Until they do, there will always be problems.


I have no problem with the idea of a multi-ethnic successor state that combines both Jewish and Palestinians.

 

[inbetween]

When did Israel last have a government that wasn't extremist?

Israel is such an extreme society that they assassinated their own prime minister when he pledged to strike a peace deal.

How it exists is an extremist society based on the idea of racial supremacy. They aren't likely to relinquish that foundational idea. Until they do, there will always be problems.


I have no problem with the idea of a multi-ethnic successor state that combines both Jewish and Palestinians.

Would the Palestinians agree to the idea of a mult-ethnic successor state? I don't think they would. Note that there are many Islamic countries in the Middle East, none of them are secular and they're all underpinned by Islamic law.

I think sometimes that idea is lost because the simple fact is the opponents of Zionism in the end would rather the Jews lived elsewhere.

I've heard it on this thread where some have said that Jewish people should live in the well established Jewish homeland that is the US, imagine if you told that to a Muslim?

 

[bluethrunthru]

sooooooooooooooo ........... to get this straight - the 100 or so surviving hostages taken by Hamas in Southern
Gaza will be freed from Hezbollah run bank vaults in Southern Lebanon?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Would the Palestinians agree to the idea of a mult-ethnic successor state? I don't think they would. Note that there are many Islamic countries in the Middle East, none of them are secular and they're all underpinned by Islamic law.

Why wouldn't they? Plenty of Arabs accepted living within the borders of Israel even as second class citizens. Given respective birthrates the Arabs would also be the majority in the multi ethnic state within a generation. It's the Zionists that aren't prepared to live in a society where there's a racial hierarchy.

I think sometimes that idea is lost because the simple fact is the opponents of Zionism in the end would rather the Jews lived elsewhere.

Jews who aren't proponents of Zionism aren't a threat to peace or Palestinians. I would rather that Zionists chose to live elsewhere if they can't get over the idea that they have a special value.

I've heard it on this thread where some have said that Jewish people should live in the well established Jewish homeland that is the US, imagine if you told that to a Muslim?

Why is a Jewish equivalent of Salt Lake City/ Utah an evil idea?

 

[inbetween]

Why wouldn't they? Plenty of Arabs accepted living within the borders of Israel even as second class citizens. Given respective birthrates the Arabs would also be the majority in the multi ethnic state within a generation. It's the Zionists that aren't prepared to live in a society where there's a racial hierarchy.



Jews who aren't proponents of Zionism aren't a threat to peace or Palestinians. I would rather that Zionists chose to live elsewhere if they can't get over the idea that they have a special value.



Why is a Jewish equivalent of Salt Lake City/ Utah an evil idea?

I think it would be very easy to find evidence that the Palestinians would want to declare an official religion and law system based upon Islam. By nature though that would be incompatible with a free and secular society and it certainly detracts any possibility of equality in law for anybody who isn't Muslim. The evidence of that is well plainly obvious throughout the Middle East.

You only have to look at how many non-Muslim people comfortably live in the more modern Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, it's very few. With outright hostile countries such as Yemen or Syria you can count the number of Jewish people living there on one hand.

The closest example is perhaps Turkey but whilst Turkey is predominately Muslim Turkey is no different to the west in that it does not have an Islamic law based system such as Sharia.

Do the Palestinians want to live and coexist with Jewish people and others in a secular state such as Turkey? I seriously doubt it. At the very least they want to stop dying and maybe would accept such a state on those grounds but ultimately that isn't what they want. What they want is an Islamic country and for the Jews living in Israel to go away which is sort of no different to the Zionists in Israel.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I think it would be very easy to find evidence that the Palestinians would want to declare an official religion and law system based upon Islam. By nature though that would be incompatible with a free and secular society and it certainly detracts any possibility of equality in law for anybody who isn't Muslim. The evidence of that is well plainly obvious throughout the Middle East.

You only have to look at how many non-Muslim people comfortably live in the more modern Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, it's very few. With outright hostile countries such as Yemen or Syria you can count the number of Jewish people living there on one hand.

The closest example is perhaps Turkey but whilst Turkey is predominately Muslim Turkey is no different to the west in that it does not have an Islamic law based system such as Sharia.

Do the Palestinians want to live and coexist with Jewish people and others in a secular state such as Turkey? I seriously doubt it. At the very least they want to stop dying and maybe would accept such a state on those grounds but ultimately that isn't what they want. What they want is an Islamic country and for the Jews living in Israel to go away which is sort of no different to the Zionists in Israel.

You might need to read up on your history.

The PLO were a secular organisation and used the same tactics as Hamas.

There were also a range of groups that participated with Hamas on October 7th. This included a Marxist paramilitary.

It's not a religious conflict.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

When did Israel last have a government that wasn't extremist?

Israel is such an extreme society that they assassinated their own prime minister when he pledged to strike a peace deal.

How it exists is an extremist society based on the idea of racial supremacy. They aren't likely to relinquish that foundational idea. Until they do, there will always be problems.


I have no problem with the idea of a multi-ethnic successor state that combines both Jewish and Palestinians.

Your living in fantasy land if you think that’s going to happen, especially with Hamas still there and huge numbers of supporters - who want to eradicate all jews.

Muslims do work and live in Israel, but it’s a minority and it’s controlled. There’s no way the population of either side would accept it.

It’s the same with other countries in the Middle East. Countries like Syria, Egypt and other wouldn’t accept millions of Jewish people. You mention racial supremacy - that’s the same in most countries in that region. A two state solution is the way forward in my view. Otherwise it’s continuous war.

 

[robbieh]

Will the international community allow this?

Israeli settler leader Daniella Weiss says Palestinians will 'disappear' from Gaza

Speaking at Likud-backed conference, Weiss says thousands of settlers are ready to move to Gaza, and Palestinians have 'lost the right' to be there

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Your living in fantasy land if you think that’s going to happen, especially with Hamas still there and huge numbers of supporters - who want to eradicate all jews.

Muslims do work and live in Israel, but it’s a minority and it’s controlled. There’s no way the population of either side would accept it.

It’s the same with other countries in the Middle East. Countries like Syria, Egypt and other wouldn’t accept millions of Jewish people. You mention racial supremacy - that’s the same in most countries in that region. A two state solution is the way forward in my view. Otherwise it’s continuous war.

The two state solution is non viable because the Zionists within Israel have deliberately pursued policies that make a it practically impossible for a Palestinian territory to exist.

How could they exist when there are settler enclaves splattered about like a Jackson Pollock?

The original two state solution prior to the forced partition also included a plan for economic union. So it wasn't two truly independent states.

Sorry this isn't true about the racial supremacy point. The zionists brought with them a form of 19th century ethnic nationalism that would eventually morph into National Socialism. Zionism's closest extant equivalent is probably Serbian Ethnic Nationalism.