Middle East Conflict

gordondaviesmoustache said:
imo (and I’m certainly no expert) in very simple terms, at least from a European perspective it is because Jewish people were far more widely dispersed and independently successful from medieval through to industrial times throughout most of Europe than any other ‘non-indigenous’ racial group. Combine that with (unlike medieval Christianity) no cultural restriction from lending money and an ability to blame Jewish people for the death of Jesus (which is absurd on so many different levels) then you have a cocktail for suspicion, blame and recrimination which took root and endured.

In even simpler terms, it is because they refused to be cowed and subservient that they were historically persecuted - and that gives rise to enduring suspicion and resentment today in some (paranoid and malign) quarters, with some people genuinely believing they run the world.

Jewish people have arguably the most fascinating and admirable history and culture of any people on the planet and it’s perfectly understandable and laudable (and correct) why they were given a homeland after WW2. It was Europe’s attempt at an apology for the appalling way they had been treated for many centuries culminating in the Holocaust.

Like so many times when people are trying to right a wrong and when lines are redrawn on a map, however, it wasn’t fully thought through. I think the last part is hard to argue against, given the current state of play.
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Good post. I think the most telling phrase is the Jewish people were 'independently successful' which is a red rag to a bull for people who think the 'state' should control absolutely everything and anyone daring to be successful needs to be re-educated. The GDP of Israel is 488.00 billion in USD (52170 per person)whilst the GDP of Palestine is 18.04 billion in USD (3664 per person). Does the financial success of a country matter? Well I think most of us would rather live in Israel than Palestine, so yes it does.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
The argument is that it wasn't some thriving, well-established sovereign territory run by Arabs, which was then overrun by Jews who stuck a pin in a map. That's a fallacious argument I've debunked on here a number of times.

And it undoubtedly had been a Jewish homeland up to the 1st century BCE, with a significant number of Jews, albeit a minority, so it wasn't like it was some random choice.

But at the end of the day, what happened in 1175, 1472, 1848 or whatever other year you want to pick, is largely irrelevant. The facts on the ground are that the 1947 partition decision and the subsequent 1948 borders, plus the displacement of around 1.5 million Arabs and Jews from their homes, is the actual starting point.

The mental gymnastics of those who say partition (which offered a two-state solution) was wrong but now desperately want a two-state solution are very amusing.
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I'm not quite sure who you mean in the last paragraph, but the first paragraph deserves a comment or two.

It wasn't a well run sovereign state run by Arabs. It was an Ottoman territory with Arabs rubbing along together fine, Christians, Moslems, Jews. Your word "overran" is awkward, but the whole project was aimed at creating a Jewish majority in the land, creating those "facts on the ground". That probably did feel a bit like being overrun, even for the indigenous Jews soon outnumbered by colonising Ashkenazi Jews from Europe.
 
Berts Neck said:
A fallacious argument that you have personally debunked.Well in that case it must be true.Patronising,perhaps?
Equally what you suggest is that because it was not thriving it was fair game to be taken over ?Interesting view.
It was a pin in a map as Argentina, Uganda,even Madagascar had been suggested as options,yet you are happy to quote 1BCE in effect the Bible.Well go back a bit further to Canaan ??. The Bible is very clear that the state of Israel should only exist when the Messiah returns and some Orthodox Jews hold this belief.
The two state(in effect three state) solution was never going to work as the Israelis control all the borders and have suppressed the Arabs/Palestinians/Ottomans, whatever you may call them.
But I ask you this.5-6 million Ukrainians have lost their homes. If the UN voted to allow them to settle in Prestwich, you lost your home, forced to live in a shit hole, you would be happy ?? Come on.Would you not fight back ??
Frankly, you support a club that is run by Arabs.A club that has equally embraced Jewish people in Manchester. A club that signed Bert.
In my heart I respect you but have said it before, do not be so patronising and look at both sides here.
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So you're a biblical scholar now and take it literally? That's really the worst argument I've ever heard, and in your post that takes some doing. Do you seriously think that Uganda has the same significance for the Jewish people that Israel, their historic home, does?

There's lots of states that didn't exist 100 years ago that now do. Most of the Middle East and Africa for a start. Many of those were "given" to one group or other. If you can read books without lots of pictures or that don't consist of give-word sentences, I'd recommend James Barr's "A Line In The Sand". The Al Saud tribe's claim to Saudi Arabia is based on conquest of the other tribes (and that conquest was only finally completed about a hundred years ago).

The Hashemites who rule Jordan were Saudis who lost out to the Al Sauds but got some land because they'd also supported the Allies in WW1. Many African countries were formed that arbitrarily brought competing groups within the same boundaries.

Millions of Indians were displaced in 1947 when that country was partitioned. None of those are screaming to go back to their original homes. Pakistan, in fact, is in the process of expelling 1.7m undocumented Afghan refugees, some of whom have lived in Pakistan for decades. Where's your outrage about that? You're probably completely ignorant about it, yet spout the usual ill-informed cliches about Israel/Palestine.

Nd talking of Afghanistan, it's estimated that 2/3rds of the population require humanitarian aid, yet the funds given to the previous regime have been frozen by the countries that previously donated since the Taliban took over. Sounds to me like collective punishment of the Afghan people, yet no one is marching in London demanding that Pakistan stop the deportation.
 
Vic said:
I'm not quite sure who you mean in the last paragraph, but the first paragraph deserves a comment or two.

It wasn't a well run sovereign state run by Arabs. It was an Ottoman territory with Arabs rubbing along together fine, Christians, Moslems, Jews. Your word "overran" is awkward, but the whole project was aimed at creating a Jewish majority in the land, creating those "facts on the ground". That probably did feel a bit like being overrun, even for the indigenous Jews soon outnumbered by colonising Ashkenazi Jews from Europe.
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You've reminded me of a post you made a while ago that I meant to respond to.

You refer to "colonising Ashkenazi Jews from Europe" rather sneeringly. You're seemingly an intelligent person, so have you ever considered why those "colonising European Jews" were so keen to go to what was then Mandatory Palestine in the 1930's and 1940's?

Here's a clue: it wasn't part of some fiendish plot (that damn Jewish cunning again) to deliberately outnumber the indigenous Arab population.
 
I am increasingly more and more appalled that the west is not coming out and saying "stop all of this shit, right now".

There can be no justification for what Israel are inflicting on Palestine, NONE. They have gone FAR too far already and it must stop right now.

It is in any event a senseless waste of time that OF COURSE will fail to eradicate future terrorist attacks upon them. In fact they are just making it worse, and killing a load of innocent people without giving a shit. It's fucking outrageous and I am really appalled that our government, US lapdogs that we are, are not calling it out for what it is. A war crime on a grand scale.
 
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