Middle East Conflict

Dax777 said:
To quote my favorite living philosopher, "there are no solutions here, only tradeoffs." Nothing Israel does would appease Hamas. At some point folks need to understand this.

For Hamas it's not a land dispute. That's just the current pretext nor is it a concern for the lives of the Palestinian Arabs. That's just a 'good for public image in the West' posture. At its core it's an Ideological belief in an Islamic Caliphate. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, their goals are not the same as the Palestinians. Even if they currently have a common foe.

This, the goal is not to blast Hamas out of existence. Rather out of effectiveness. By the way, many said similar about ISI in Iraq. And yet today they have been crushed out of effectiveness and any control. Same has to be done to Hamas.
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Yes but at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives. That is not some strategic achievement to be proud of. Those are sick and repulsive war crimes and those who perpetuated them deserve to be dragged in front of the Hague.
 
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halfcenturyup said:
Say what now? I haven't deleted any posts. Ever. As far as I am aware. If I make a mistake, I admit it. Doesn't happen much. :)

But can we stop asking what else can the Israelis do? Please?
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You don't have to respond on someone else's behalf friend. Seeking alternative views off different posters is what this forum is all about. At the moment you're presenting your opinion, but that's all it is.
 
inbetween said:
What other end result will there be? Israel are not going to stop until Hamas are gone or at least the threat is gone and that seems pretty clear.

I wouldn't be surprised if this goes beyond Gaza by the way. Mossad are well known for their ability to make people disappear. I'm sure the Hamas leaders hiding out in various countries will be thinking twice about their protection.
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Other options include, but are not limited to:

1. The Israeli actions amount to a genocide against the Gazans, killing hundreds of thousands through violence, disease and starvation.

2. The violence being perpetrated against Gaza cascades through generations, emboldening and facilitating Palestinian guerilla war and terrorism against Israel and its finance by outside actors.

3. Israel occupies Gaza for a generation before eventually being exhausted and retreating once again.

4. Israel uses this as an excuse to further drive Palestinians from the West Bank (this seems to be happening already) driving Hamas style violence from there too.

Lots of other bad outcomes are also possible, including a humiliation of Israeli forces by Hamas in urban warfare.

I think the idea that any sort of clean military victory followed by peace is about the least likely of these, much as it would be desirable to rid the world of the murderous attackers of 7th october.
 
Vialli98 said:
That doesn't mean Israel should drop bombs indiscriminately and to hell with the consequences. If your house was being robbed, and the robber had already murdered your parents, and you called the police, and when they showed up the robber grabbed your missus and put a gun to her head, I'm sure you wouldn't say it was fine for the police to say 'we're going to shoot them both, the only way to stop him from doing this again is to shoot through your missus'.

You cannot put 7000 deaths at the feet of Hamas as if Israel has no agency. Hamas clearly won't come out of their tunnels, so the answer cannot be to keep dropping thousands of bombs until their isn't a single soul left alive in Gaza. That is unconscionable. That makes Israel the bad guys too, but it's obvious they don't care about perception because they will always be protected by the important nations in the west, namely the US. So they get to continue slaughtering thousands of innocent people with impunity and if anyone ever dares to criticise them, they'll just invoke Oct 7 and carry on where they left off.
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I fully understand you are feeling for all those innocent victims, as I do. But you don't want to talk about the other side of the story where Israel, for all their history, have to defend their sovereign state.

That's the dilemma. But both sides of the discussion have a right to exist, the concern of individual life AND the level of national existence.

I'd like to see your view from BOTH perspectives and the respective proposals.
Actually this goes for all posters to stop their one-sided Kindergarten level tit for tat.
 
These Likud people are deranged.

www.dw.com

Israel-Hamas war: UN chief 'deeply alarmed' by escalation – DW – 11/01/2023

UN chief Antonio Guterres said he was "dismayed" by reports that two-thirds of people killed in Gaza were women and children. Meanwhile, Yemen's Houthi rebels have pledged to continue attacking Israel. DW has the latest.
www.dw.com www.dw.com

Another thing I keep noticing with the Israeli politicians doing these kind of stunts is how often they came to prominence objecting to the peace process and Oslo accords. They aren’t interested in peace or a 2 state solution.
 
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The prime minister is right that no one had given him an early warning or shown him signs about Hamas' intention to launch a war on October 7. But Hamas does not operate in a vacuum, and this attack did not emerge out of nowhere.

Now what would be the response if a gentile said "Hamas does not operate in a vacuum"?


"Every paradigm is good for its own time. A good strategist asks every day whether his strategy is still valid and Netanyahu didn't do that," a former general says.

Hamas delenda est
 
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St.Pauli support said:
I fully understand you are feeling for all those innocent victims, as I do. But you don't want to talk about the other side of the story where Israel, for all their history, have to defend their sovereign state.

That's the dilemma. But both sides of the discussion have a right to exist, the concern of individual life AND the level of national existence.

I'd like to see your view from BOTH perspectives and the respective proposals.
Actually this goes for all posters to stop their one-sided Kindergarten level tit for tat.
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I honestly do. I was shocked and sickened to the core when I saw what Hamas did on Oct 7, and I totally and completely agree with the bolded. Israel's right to exist cannot be questioned.

The problem is since Oct 7 it's been a never ending, non-stop slaughter of innocent people, most of them little children with the death toll going on 8-9 times of Oct 7 and it is still going on as we speak with thousands more Palestinians likely to be murdered in the coming days and weeks. I don't know what Israeli perspective I should consider in the midst of the death and destruction of Gaza.

I don't think this is an even conflict. IDF is a top 10 military in the world with the financial and material backing of the biggest and strongest military power in the history of the world. The death toll going back decades is so heavily one-sided it's actually shocking and that is before we get to what the IDF and the illegal settlers are doing in the West Bank, Palestinian death toll now stands at nearly 80 in the last 3 weeks and there is no Hamas to blame there.
 
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