Middle East Conflict

[BlueNomad]

Thanks for not answering the Question as to what the Palestinians should do regarding the theft of their Houses.

Answering a question (which you didn’t answer) with a question you expect me to answer is not only a poor construct, but a fool’s errand…even though I did answer the conceptual idea.

I am absolutely against the building of settlements in what have been deemed “Palestinian areas.” I find it provocative and unnecessarily so.

Again, as a general talking point in an ongoing struggle to coexist, it is a valid point. However, in a discussion of the genesis and resolution of the current conflict, it is a distraction and irrelevance.

The imperative right now is to return the hostages, stop the fighting, renunciation of the desire to exterminate the Jewish state, and a return to accepted borders. Phrases like ”from the river to the sea” and South Africa’s claims of genocide do nothing to help create that resolution…and given Iran’s current desire to “proxy poke” the west, I doubt anything will change anytime soon.

I live in hope.

 

[BlueNomad]

But how have you deduced the majority of innocent Palestinians want Israel removed from the map? Moreover, how have you deduced many of the innocent Jewish population of Israel want Palestine removed? You seem to be falling into the trap of "most Palestinians (and by extension Muslims) are intolerant and monomaniacal"; you're clearly an intelligent poster so it's a trap you shouldn't be falling into.

Palestinians are being used as a proxy by outside forces. The population is being sacrificed to make larger, more strategic, political goals. They are pawns in a greater struggle than their own daily struggles.

Sadly, there is nothing Israel can do about that and they have to face the person placed in front of them.

And I don't think Zionism is a flimsy oratorical tool. It's a truism of the state of Israel. When the state's leaders have coerced their entire military to stray perilously close to the boundaries of genocide, with the aim of wiping out Palestine and its people as an entity, we can categorise such actions as Zionist. It's Zionism that pervades the nation from the head down.

Jews want to live in peace in Israel. Some politicians and a small minority of the Jewish population are more radical in their beliefs. They generally do not wield great power, but they are often part of the coalitions that are a fact of Jewish politics.

Having been to Israel numerous times, and knowing a fair few Jewish people, I can only say that most Jewish people I know and have met only want some security from the constant stream of anti-Semitic vitriol that emanates from their close neighbors and have no desire to move out into the settlements in order to attempt to move borders. Indeed, the current borders are a function of defensive wars fought against those who constantly seek to both minimize and remove the Israeli state.

To be fair, I don’t know anyone living in Gaza or the West Bank, so I don’t have l any of their personal stories for comparison. However, I believe the majority of Palestinians would like to raise their families in peace and prosperity, too. As I have said, I believe they’re used as pawns. Fodder for the larger strategic goals of their masters.

 

[KPXBLN]

Palestinians are being used as a proxy by outside forces. The population is being sacrificed to make larger, more strategic, political goals. They are pawns in a greater struggle than their own daily struggles.

Sadly, there is nothing Israel can do about that and they have to face the person placed in front of them.



Jews want to live in peace in Israel. Some politicians and a small minority of the Jewish population are more radical in their beliefs. They generally do not wield great power, but they are often part of the coalitions that are a fact of Jewish politics.

Having been to Israel numerous times, and knowing a fair few Jewish people, I can only say that most Jewish people I know and have met only want some security from the constant stream of anti-Semitic vitriol that emanates from their close neighbors and have no desire to move out into the settlements in order to attempt to move borders. Indeed, the current borders are a function of defensive wars fought against those who constantly seek to both minimize and remove the Israeli state.

To be fair, I don’t know anyone living in Gaza or the West Bank, so I don’t have l any of their personal stories for comparison. However, I believe the majority of Palestinians would like to raise their families in peace and prosperity, too. As I have said, I believe they’re used as pawns. Fodder for the larger strategic goals of their masters.

The main thing that stops Palestinians living in peace and prosperity is the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, which has been going on for 56 years. It's not the only thing, but it's the most important. The occupation should end; western governments need to stop propping it up. Many Israelis who want peace also want the same thing. All this other stuff about 'asymmetrical warfare' and kids being hypothetically dangerous or whatever is just noise, quite possibly based on a very limited understanding of the actual situation in the region.

 

[Vic]

No, not at all. And I was talking about heightened awareness and potential threats. It’s what law enforcement are taught. Sheesh.

Open season? It’s clear you haven’t grown up around weapons!

"Law enforcement" itself sounds dehumanising (for the enforcers). Surely the most moral army in the world doesn't teach beating up any unarmed suspects, let alone a child.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

"Law enforcement" itself sounds dehumanising (for the enforcers). Surely the most moral army in the world doesn't teach beating up any unarmed suspects, let alone a child.

I hear the shitbags teach them to kill their own unarmed, recently escaped hostages, carrying a white flag.

Dehumanised is the perfect word.

 

[inchy14]

No, I find the false equivalency a specious argument at best.

Netanyahu needs to go, because I think his personal agenda is not the agenda of the general population.

However, the notion of any, even remote, equivalency between the desires of general Jewish population of Israel and the Palestinians desire to see Israel removed from the map is nonsense.

I also find the use of the term “Zionist” to not be representative of the general population’s desire to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbors and it is often used as an inflammatory and derogatory oratorical tool to denote some kind of zealotry.

Seeing as Hamas can’t even defend Palestine can you or anyone else explain how they could remove Israel off the map?

It’s never ever been feasible and is a shit argument for attacking Palestine.

 

[Vic]

Answering a question (which you didn’t answer) with a question you expect me to answer is not only a poor construct, but a fool’s errand…even though I did answer the conceptual idea.

I am absolutely against the building of settlements in what have been deemed “Palestinian areas.” I find it provocative and unnecessarily so.

Again, as a general talking point in an ongoing struggle to coexist, it is a valid point. However, in a discussion of the genesis and resolution of the current conflict, it is a distraction and irrelevance.

The imperative right now is to return the hostages, stop the fighting, renunciation of the desire to exterminate the Jewish state, and a return to accepted borders. Phrases like ”from the river to the sea” and South Africa’s claims of genocide do nothing to help create that resolution…and given Iran’s current desire to “proxy poke” the west, I doubt anything will change anytime soon.

I live in hope.

"Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." (Likud party platform, 1977)

Have you not been watching the right wingers wanting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? How will that help resolve the current conflict? (Actually, they want an Israel from the river to the river - the Nile to the Euphrates.)

 

[Berts Neck]

Wow, to be honest thought you were a good poster but your recent input has been somewhat odd.

Yes the WORLD has grown up in leaps and bounds mostly due to cheap goods from communist China.I guess you are happy to accept that. But ask yourself this.In the West we have the view that our way is the right way. But in Russia, China they love their country too and are they wrong because they are different ?

NATO.. OK you as a clever man will be fully aware that Putin wished to join NATO ???

Houthis..interesting..I guess I can see why this happening to a point. Why on earth are so few countries backing this attack ? Could it be the ships are being specifically targeted rather than random ??

American isolationism..Have no idea. Has not happened in my lifetime.Likely never.Perhaps it could be calmer without you guys poking your noses into any conflict all over the world. Strange how many Europena countries aside the UK do not follow your doctrine.

Chicago..my friend ..22 miles is so different to the Pacific and Atlantic.. come on,do not be silly..Europe has and potentially will be stuck in a shit storm. When was the last time cities were bombed in the US like the UK in WW2.

What do I wish to inherit..well peace I guess..but do I think the US will bring world peace,sadly not..And in truth this conflict in the Middle East is a nightmare. We are talking about so many aspects from tribal warfare, through the useless intervention of the West in splitting regions for political/finacial gain and even trying to do the right thing with Jewish people but in the wrong way.It has not worked out well.

Finally rough with the smooth.. I feel you are wrong..almost black or white..life is grey and you can have 120 grade grit between the rough and the smooth. It is available at your local store.

 

[BlueNomad]

"Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." (Likud party platform, 1977)

Have you not been watching the right wingers wanting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? How will that help resolve the current conflict? (Actually, they want an Israel from the river to the river - the Nile to the Euphrates.)

False equivalency. The currency of the day.

 

[BlueNomad]

Seeing as Hamas can’t even defend Palestine can you or anyone else explain how they could remove Israel off the map?

It’s never ever been feasible and is a shit argument for attacking Palestine.

Terrorism, and the states that sponsor it, not a problem. Got it!

 

[TinFoilHat]

Seeing as Hamas can’t even defend Palestine can you or anyone else explain how they could remove Israel off the map?

It’s never ever been feasible and is a shit argument for attacking Palestine.

The Harry Maguire of Terrorism...

 

[Vic]

False equivalency. The currency of the day.

I thought the currency of the day is not answering questions.

But yes, there is no equivalence, when the idea of a "free Palestine" from the river to the sea is criticised by people who want a Greater Israel including chunks of Egypt and Iraq.

 

[BlueNomad]

Wow, to be honest thought you were a good poster but your recent input has been somewhat odd.

Backhanded compliment. I’ll take it, even if your comment is not nearly as generous as hoped. I won’t opine on the quality of your posts, as I don’t personalize them and read each persons post as a stand alone thought.

Yes the WORLD has grown up in leaps and bounds mostly due to cheap goods from communist China.I guess you are happy to accept that. But ask yourself this.In the West we have the view that our way is the right way. But in Russia, China they love their country too and are they wrong because they are different ?

I take it you don’t purchase anything imported from Communist countries? Are you happy with that? Or, are you the 0.00001% of people in the west who are self sustaining? How about supporting a team owned by a sovereign wealth fund of middle Eastern country? How far are you going to try to go to make a tortured, irrelevant, point?

I make no bones about the fact that it is nation states that determine economic models and wage wars, not individuals who may or may not love their country! Not sure what that has to do with the price of butter, but I’ll soldier on with your post…

NATO.. OK you as a clever man will be fully aware that Putin wished to join NATO ???

HAHAHAHA!

Houthis..interesting..I guess I can see why this happening to a point. Why on earth are so few countries backing this attack ? Could it be the ships are being specifically targeted rather than random ??

Does targeting western/Christian/British ships make it OK? Is morality and the rule of law a popularity contest? Why does it matter who is outraged or not, “backing the attack” or not?

American isolationism..Have no idea. Has not happened in my lifetime.Likely never.Perhaps it could be calmer without you guys poking your noses into any conflict all over the world. Strange how many Europena countries aside the UK do not follow your doctrine.

My country? My doctrine? America has helped be the security blanket for most of Europe allowing them the luxury of not having to protect their own, or our collective, best interests.

You sound like Xi & Putin’s wet dream! Maybe you would prefer to live in Russia or China, and love doing it, no doubt?!

Chicago..my friend ..22 miles is so different to the Pacific and Atlantic.. come on,do not be silly..Europe has and potentially will be stuck in a shit storm. When was the last time cities were bombed in the US like the UK in WW2.

Do you mean other than Honolulu or the Pacific Islands?

I agree that modern technology has reduced 22 miles to seconds, but for millennia it was an insurmountable hurdle to most. That same technology has also reduced those oceans in the same manner. In fact, Russia is far closer to the U.S. than the UK, as is China!

What do I wish to inherit..well peace I guess..but do I think the US will bring world peace,sadly not..

At least you have your answer for the next Miss World contest you enter! With eons of religious war ever present, it’s hard to envisage the entire world at peace, but many people would suggest that the relative peace being kept in a M.A.D. nuclear world for the last 3/4 century has been a good thing for the world. It has certainly given us room for the generation of snowflakes we are currently having to endure!

And in truth this conflict in the Middle East is a nightmare. We are talking about so many aspects from tribal warfare, through the useless intervention of the West in splitting regions for political/finacial gain and even trying to do the right thing with Jewish people but in the wrong way.It has not worked out well.

It is, indeed, a nightmare, so who to blame? Depends on where you sit, right?

Sounds like we need your diplomatic skills in the 40s to solve these intractable problems in the “right way!”

Finally rough with the smooth.. I feel you are wrong..almost black or white..life is grey and you can have 120 grade grit between the rough and the smooth. It is available at your local store.

Certainly lots of shades of grey, but that has nothing to do with the rough with the smooth, unless you think life is, was, and always will be relatively smooth?! The rough (war) is what usually leads to the smooth (peace), but if you know of another way, the entire world is all ears. For now, though, I’ll recommend the 120 grit at the local hardware store if they need to solve any problems short of all out war to smooth over the rough spots.

 

[BlueNomad]

I thought the currency of the day is not answering questions.

But yes, there is no equivalence, when the idea of a "free Palestine" from the river to the sea is criticised by people who want a Greater Israel including chunks of Egypt and Iraq.

Take that issue up with them.

And, if a “free Palestine” means an Hamas and/or Hezbollah run state, funded by a fundamentalist Iran, claiming their land as “from the river to the sea,” then you lost me at “Hello.”

Lastly, some questions are so ridiculous as to seem rhetorical in nature, but I’ll give it a try…

To equate the stated goals of the Likud Party, a minority faction in Israel that requires a coalition to have any political say, as written almost a half century ago, with the currently stated goals of not only the people running Palestine but also parroted by millions of people marching in the streets of foreign cities on their behalf today, is a false equivalency.

I’d politely suggest Israel has had the capability to militarily expel Palestinians from both the West Bank and Gaza, yet never done it. That suggests such a 1970’s Political Platform of a minority political faction has not been, nor is it, the stated goal of the State of Israel.

 

[Vic]

Take that issue up with them.

And, if a “free Palestine” means an Hamas and/or Hezbollah run state, funded by a fundamentalist Iran, claiming their land as “from the river to the sea,” then you lost me at “Hello.”

Lastly, some questions are so ridiculous as to seem rhetorical in nature, but I’ll give it a try…

To equate the stated goals of the Likud Party, a minority faction in Israel that requires a coalition to have any political say, as written almost a half century ago, with the currently stated goals of not only the people running Palestine but also parroted by millions of people marching in the streets of foreign cities on their behalf today, is a false equivalency.

I’d politely suggest Israel has had the capability to militarily expel Palestinians from both the West Bank and Gaza, yet never done it. That suggests such a 1970’s Political Platform of a minority political faction has not been, nor is it, the stated goal of the State of Israel.

But Hamas in 2017 indicated acceptance of a two state solution, changing their "stated goals".

Whereas the rhetoric from a "minority faction" (that keeps forming Israeli governments) gets less accommodating and quite clearly the government has advocates of getting rid of Palestinians from Gaza ("voluntary emigration" - yeah, sure).

Obviously on both sides there are ideologues, and some advocating ethnic cleansing.

It's immoral equivalence that's the problem.

 

[BlueNomad]

But Hamas in 2017 indicated acceptance of a two state solution, changing their "stated goals".

Whereas the rhetoric from a "minority faction" (that keeps forming Israeli governments) gets less accommodating and quite clearly the government has advocates of getting rid of Palestinians from Gaza ("voluntary emigration" - yeah, sure).

Obviously on both sides there are ideologues, and some advocating ethnic cleansing.

It's immoral equivalence that's the problem.

I can certainly agree that there are extremes with whom neither of us agree.

That sounds like a good place to leave it, because we are not going to solve the issues.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

Because I always see people say "if you like that, you should prefer to live in China or Russia". I don't know what it's like to live in Russia, but I want to talk about life in China.

In fact, our life is very ordinary. The most common scenario is that you go to school, work hard to get into university, study science and engineering, become an engineer, and work for a company. Then, like most people in this world, you go to work and take vacation, enjoy your life.

Is there any difference between this and life in the West? I don't know, because I have never lived in the West. The biggest drawback here is that there are too many people and it's crowded, with small living spaces. An average Chinese family has a living space of about 90 ㎡ to 140 ㎡. Apart from these disadvantages, you can buy everything you want, cars, electronic products, and it's not difficult to travel abroad.

When Westerners talk about China, they always use words like "communism", "authoritarianism" and other very strongly ideological terms.

But in reality, we rarely discuss such issues in China. We do not call ourselves a Communist country, but a socialist country. In daily life, you will not hear people discussing topics like capitalism, Communistism or socialism. We like a strong central government. In Chinese history, when the central government is relatively strong, its policies can be implemented nationwide, from top to bottom. Whenever history enters such a period, the whole country will enjoy prosperity. If the central government is not strong enough, local elites will do whatever they want, and the whole country will be in chaos.

In China, the practice of democracy is different from the West. We seek individual interests through collective efforts and collective progress. This may sound abstract. Let's use football as a metaphor: if you're a player who wants a higher salary and a better life, then you should serve your team. If everyone in the team is willing to sacrifice some personal interests and work hard to make the team successful, then every player will ultimately achieve success.

If one day, China adopts the same political system as the West, that would not be the progress of democracy, but its regression. We are all too aware of the ugly and hypocritical behavior people are willing to engage in to win an election. We prefer a government that has clear fundamental principles, strong execution, and a sense of responsibility. It is willing to listen to people's voices, address their difficulties, and lead the country towards progress. Even if it may make mistakes and face criticism, it is still willing to bravely fulfill its mission.

This is why you can see so many Chinese love their country and support their government. Because their country and government come from their own culture. It is part of their thinking and part of their history. They do not require people in other parts of the world to adopt the same approach, because history is different and people's thinking is different.

Sorry, this might be off topic, but in terms of Palestine, the Middle East region, including Afghanistan, there are some similar characteristics. Just like how the Soviet Union and the United States were unable to transform Afghanistan, you cannot use the wrong formula to solve local problems.

 

[BlueNomad]

A Chinese 1%er! Yea!

 

[inchy14]

Terrorism, and the states that sponsor it, not a problem. Got it!

Nope, none of that will wipe it off the map, try again.

 

[BlueNomad]

Nope, none of that will wipe it off the map, try again.

So, if Iran gets the bomb, Israel is safe as houses?