Middle East Conflict

inbetween said:
I honestly don't understand the argument.

Iran are not an existential threat today but only because of years of successful western sanctions and Israeli intelligence actions which have prevented Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.

If Iran did acquire nuclear weapons then do you believe that they'd use them in Israel? The rhetoric and Iranian government suggests so? At what point will you admit that Iran are a bit of a pain in the arse?

Notice we haven't spoken about anybody wanting peace, that sort of sums this up doesn't it?
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My only point was that the justification on here for what Israel started doing after the October attack was that Hamas was an existential threat to Israel. Which imo was bollocks then and is now. Then it became that Hamas is supplied and funded by Iran which is an existential threat to Israel, which also imo was bollocks then and is now. That's all.

But as you ask:

Russia has nuclear weapons. Do you believe they'd use them in Ukraine? The rhetoric and Russian government suggests so? It's not a great argument.
The Ayatollahs may be crazy in our eyes but I doubt they are suicidal. Any attack on Israel with nuclear weapons, or nuclear material with their signature, would be the end of them.

I fully understand that Iran are being a pain in the arse. Do I think it's because they want to eliminate Israel? I am not so sure. It seems to me it's just part of giving the "Little Satan" the occasional bloody nose as part of their broader conflict with the "Great Satan".

And about peace, my argument is that it won't happen until the US and Iran put their big boy pants on and negotiate something they each want in return for giving up something the other wants. I doubt the Iranians really care much about Israel or the Palestinians one way or the other.
 
halfcenturyup said:
My only point was that the justification on here for what Israel started doing after the October attack was that Hamas was an existential threat to Israel. Which imo was bollocks then and is now. Then it became that Hamas is supplied and funded by Iran which is an existential threat to Israel, which also imo was bollocks then and is now. That's all.

But as you ask:

Russia has nuclear weapons. Do you believe they'd use them in Ukraine? The rhetoric and Russian government suggests so? It's not a great argument.
The Ayatollahs may be crazy in our eyes but I doubt they are suicidal. Any attack on Israel with nuclear weapons, or nuclear material with their signature, would be the end of them.

I fully understand that Iran are being a pain in the arse. Do I think it's because they want to eliminate Israel? I am not so sure. It seems to me it's just part of giving the "Little Satan" the occasional bloody nose as part of their broader conflict with the "Great Satan".

And about peace, my argument is that it won't happen until the US and Iran put their big boy pants on and negotiate something they each want in return for giving up something the other wants. I doubt the Iranians really care much about Israel or the Palestinians one way or the other.
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Unfortunately religious zealots on all sides seem to rule, there will never be peace until they all stop believing in the tooth fairy and its mates, that won’t happen until ET lands and says they populated earth in an experiment.
 
inbetween said:
I honestly don't understand the argument.

Iran are not an existential threat today but only because of years of successful western sanctions and Israeli intelligence actions which have prevented Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.

If Iran did acquire nuclear weapons then do you believe that they'd use them in Israel? The rhetoric and Iranian government suggests so? At what point will you admit that Iran are a bit of a pain in the arse?

Notice we haven't spoken about anybody wanting peace, that sort of sums this up doesn't it?
Click to expand...
If Israel did acquire nuclear weapons ... Oh wait, they've got them. Given what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, don't they need to be deterred?

(I should make clear I'm mainly coming at this from comparison with the British argument for having a nuclear "deterrent". Thus, both sides having nuclear weapons would come under the usual argument that mutual deterrence has kept the peace in Europe for 70 years. Well, until Russia invaded Ukraine.)
 
Updated published information:

>>>>

All Ukraine children killed in the Ukraine-Russian war:
n = 633
Duration = 30 months 3 weeks

Babies (age 1-year old or less) killed in the Gaza War:
n = 743
Duration = 11 months 2 weeks
 
bluethrunthru said:
I am aware of the context but looking at what is happening Netanyahu is through the looking glass now

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This was from his earlier PM tenure.

FWIW, in regards to early Hitler…

In 1933, The Zionist Federation of Germany and the Nazi Germany convened together in a series of discussions, culminating into the Haavara Agreement whereby the Zionist Federation requested assistance from Nazi Germany in realising part of the British Mandate of Palestine as Israel (2nd choice was Argentina)

The Haavara Agreement was accorded and since 1936 upto 1939 Adolf Hitler supported the Haavara and the Jews moving to Palestine.

The prerequisite to Palestine was however that Britain is willing to gift part of Palestine to Zionist Federation, which as history has proven is unlikely.

Hence Jewish militias conducted a series of attacks on British soldiers in Palestine. At one point, the Zionist Federation of Germany also travelled and met the Fascist leaders of Italy to assist in stymieing the British in Palestine. This was under the Zionist Revisionist Movement of Italy who support fascism and the full colonisation of the British Mandate of Palestine and beyond Palestine (from the Euphrates river to the sea).

By 1940s, as how the Zionist Federation of Germany pressured Nazi Germany to assist in migrating to Palestine en masse, the agreement gradually simmered.

In summary, in the early 1930s the Zionist Federation of Germany were communicating with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

On a side note, Jewish first ship that travelled European Jews to Palestine is called the ‘Tel Aviv’. On the Tel Aviv ocean ship occupied by Jew, at the ship main mast, emblazoned a large flag. The flag was the Nazi Swastika.

Edit:
The photo of the Tel Aviv for awareness is in the next post.
 
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The Tel Aviv ship of 1930s

NYTimes-ZionistShipFlyingNaziFlag-1934.webp
 
Vic said:
If Israel did acquire nuclear weapons ... Oh wait, they've got them. Given what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, don't they need to be deterred?

(I should make clear I'm mainly coming at this from comparison with the British argument for having a nuclear "deterrent". Thus, both sides having nuclear weapons would come under the usual argument that mutual deterrence has kept the peace in Europe for 70 years. Well, until Russia invaded Ukraine.)
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It is Iran that is literally threatening Israel with genocide. Israel has not called for the obliteration of Iran so arguing that Iran needs a deterrent is a bit wild. Iran wants nuclear weapons purely because of their military inability to use conventional means to eliminate Israel.

If Iran ever acquired nuclear weapons then Israel would be justified in having nuclear weapons themselves and potentially using them in defence. The west would also be justified in arming Israel to the absolute maximum. It would seal the fate of the Palestinians that's for sure as Israel would be justified in its own defence. I don't see how this should be encouraged or how it helps but obviously you won't criticise Iran because they're the good guys eh?

Oh and Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons and they aren't in NATO so that's probably why the deterrence failed.... Do you think that Russia would have invaded had Ukraine lived under the NATO umbrella? Boring and poor.
 
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It's all very well saying Iran is going to do this, Hamas is going to do that.

But the facts are Israel is expanding. Palestinian land is shrinking. 100s of thousands of Palestinians neither live in Israel or the occupied territories as they were kicked out in 1948.
Israel can fly planes around Beirut doing what the hell they want.
It goes without saying that Hezbollah are powerless to stop them. Just as Hamas are powerless to defend Gaza.
 
inbetween said:
It is Iran that is literally threatening Israel with genocide. Israel has not called for the obliteration of Iran so arguing that Iran needs a deterrent is a bit wild. Iran wants nuclear weapons purely because of their military inability to use conventional means to eliminate Israel.

If Iran ever acquired nuclear weapons then Israel would be justified in having nuclear weapons themselves and potentially using them in defence. The west would also be justified in arming Israel to the absolute maximum. It would seal the fate of the Palestinians that's for sure as Israel would be justified in its own defence. I don't see how this should be encouraged or how it helps but obviously you won't criticise Iran because they're the good guys eh?

Oh and Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons and they aren't in NATO so that's probably why the deterrence failed.... Do you think that Russia would have invaded had Ukraine lived under the NATO umbrella? Boring and poor.
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So that's a "whoosh"...
 
robbieh said:
It's all very well saying Iran is going to do this, Hamas is going to do that.

But the facts are Israel is expanding. Palestinian land is shrinking. 100s of thousands of Palestinians neither live in Israel or the occupied territories as they were kicked out in 1948.
Israel can fly planes around Beirut doing what the hell they want.
It goes without saying that Hezbollah are powerless to stop them. Just as Hamas are powerless to defend Gaza.
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Meanwhile

 
Vic said:
Stern gang

See "Stern Gang".
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Yes I’ve done my readings of Stern, and all the other revisionist zionists’ agenda.

In a nutshell, given the mention of Hitler, both Nazi Germany and the Zionist Federation of Germany shared the same ideals in the early 1930s.

Early Nazi Germany believed that Jews do not have rights of Europe and have to migrate to their own right of return land somewhere.

Zionist Federation of Germany believed that Jews have the right of return of land somewhere, and their first choice was Palestine as the Promised Land.

Their ideals are similar that they are two sides of the same coin (literally the Haavara coins exist).

Nonetheless, always maintain that the Zionist Federation and other Revisionist Zionists DO NOT represent Jews. When
inbetween said:
It is Iran that is literally threatening Israel with genocide. Israel has not called for the obliteration of Iran so arguing that Iran needs a deterrent is a bit wild. Iran wants nuclear weapons purely because of their military inability to use conventional means to eliminate Israel.

If Iran ever acquired nuclear weapons then Israel would be justified in having nuclear weapons themselves and potentially using them in defence. The west would also be justified in arming Israel to the absolute maximum. It would seal the fate of the Palestinians that's for sure as Israel would be justified in its own defence. I don't see how this should be encouraged or how it helps but obviously you won't criticise Iran because they're the good guys eh?

Oh and Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons and they aren't in NATO so that's probably why the deterrence failed.... Do you think that Russia would have invaded had Ukraine lived under the NATO umbrella? Boring and poor.
Click to expand...

In 1948, Iran became the second Arab nation to recognise the State of Israel and welcomed Israelis.

In 1948 and early 1949, the IDF conducted the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians. During the ethnic cleansing, other than Palestinians, were also more than 2,000 Iranians in Palestine. The Iranians were important communal nodes of Iran Palestine.

Iran gradually felt uneasy for despite their recognition of Israel (even when initially Iran preferred a one-state Palestine with Arab and Jew cantons), the Iranians in Palestine were evicted of their lands.

Iran developed reservations of Israel and by 1951 severed ties with Israel by PM Mosadegh.

The severance didnt last long, as the UK, US and Israel succeeded a coup of Mossadegh in 1951, which rekindled the oil provision that was earlier set in 1948.

By 1952, and with a more preferred and abiding Iran PM, Iran thus became the primary oil provider for Israel.

In summary, Iran accepted Israel and built relations. But was the relation in return kind? Given the coup.
 
okay,
i'm not up on everything,
but i have a question.
it's slightly off-topic,
so if it's too far off-topic please ignore me...

why exactly have jews been persecuted over the centuries?

is it something to do with what they said or thought or did?
is there any rationality to it?
were they simply a minority scapegoat?
was it that they were blamed for the death of jesus?

is it to do with them being moneylenders?
i recall, when visiting venice, being told about the situation there...
early 16th century, venice gave a lot of jews some sanctuary from persecution.
(i think they had been sent packing by the spanish)
they were given refuge in an old poor quarter of the city.
the gates to it were locked at night and guarded by christian soldiers so they couldn't leave.
the world's first ever ghetto.
but it was somewhere safe for them despite the conditions.

the reason they were given this place to live was because, at the time, it was illegal for christians to charge interest on any money that they lent,
making it quite a risky thing to do,
so it became difficult to borrow money to further your business.
venice was at the centre of the naval trade route.
jews were allowed to charge interest.
they were excluded from taking any other form of job.
venice needed them to continue to progress.

i remember growing up as a child in the 60's and 70's.
if your parents got home and realised the shopkeeper had short-changed them,
they would say "he jewed me!"

is it only to do with money that they have been looked down on?
or are there other reasons historically for it?

i know there was some canard called blood libel,
but, again, i'm not up on it.


as an aside, one thing i do know, that others might not,
is that since the formation of israel ,
over 275,000 jews have emigrated there from morocco.
 
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