Middle East Conflict

[Prestwich_Blue]

The pre-IDF sects in the 12 months of 1947-1948 killed more than 160 British officers. In bars, tennis courts, outside houses, streets and alleyways, etc.

And remember Sergeant Martin and Sergeant Paice. Hung on the Netanya, the ground filled with landmines.

Military targets, not indiscriminate civilian ones. And it was certainly reprehensible but the sergeants were hung in retaliation for the hanging of three Irgun members by the British. And those three were convicted only of possessing weapons, not murder. But I assume you're OK with Jews being hung?

And after that incident, British policemen went on the rampage in Tel Aviv and murdered five innocent people. But again, they were Jews so, in your eyes, probably deserved it.

 

[dublinblue12]

The difference between the Irish & Palestinians is that most Irish people fucked off to places like the UK and USA when the going got tough in Ireland. More people emigrated from Ireland (9m) than the peak, pre-famine population (8.5m). And when you add in all the descendants of those migrants that 9m is now probably over 100m, compared to around 5m in Ireland now.

But the similarity is that they both turned to bombing and murdering to get their own way. You should have more in common with the Jews, who fought against an occupying power to get a homeland.

It's interesting you mention emigration, but the Irish diaspora wasn’t a simple choice; it was a response to severe oppression and famine, not an escape from conflict.

Also, comparing the Irish struggle for independence to the Palestinian situation ignores the complexities of both histories. The Irish sought sovereignty against colonial rule, while Palestinians face ongoing occupation and displacement. Framing the issue as one of 'bombing and murdering' is a reductive comparison and oversimplifies the legitimate struggles of both groups. In that case is dropping 40000 bombs on innocent civilians in under a year not 'bombing and murdering'.

I don't think the other poster is trying to take sides against 'jews'. Or even take a side at all. That's an extreme pov as is accusing a whole country who played no part in the holocoust of being the most anti semitic in the western world.

There's a big difference being anti aparteid, anti imperialist and not backing a government of a country - that should be held to a higher accountability if you believe in democracy - acting like a terrorist state, commiting war crimes on a daily basis, starving woman and children, cutting off water and aid in gaza, bombing large suburban areas populated by civilians despite showing on numerous occasions they are more than capable of a measured and targeted response, not to mention murdering journalists and aid workers, bombing schools hospitals and refugee camps and so on.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

This is clearly bollocks,pro Palestinian positions aren't antisemitic but you have demonstrated the israeli cry antisemitism to try and stifle debate.
Irish people are anti occupation having resisted occupation for nearly a millennia so naturally we would side with any peoples who are brutalised and dehumanised having experienced it ourselves.

Racist!!

 

[dublinblue12]

Racist!!

How did the local neo nazi meet up go down the town hall today. I hear it was jam packed.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The King David Hotel was the military headquarters of the British administration. The Irgun were certainly terrorists but it's not like they walked in to a tourist hotel and committed indiscriminate murder and rape, as well as take hundreds of hostages including old people, children and even babies.

You were comparing Irish experience to the Zionist experience. Just seemed to steer in to propaganda when you started calling the Irish bombers and painting the zionists as a purist liberation theology movement.

There isn't a moral hierarchy where Zionist terrorism is better than Irish republican terrorism.

Deir Yassin massacre included murder of women and children and rape.

 

[Postman Pep]

Interview with Sinwar from 2021.

He says they don't want war or fighting and that his people deserve peace. Says they tried peaceful resistance against the israeli occupation but the world didn't give a shit. Points out that israel massacres the palestinian people and kills their women and children, says that he would attack military targets if they could but they don't heave the weaponry, unlike israel, so they resist with what they have (this stacks up tbf as Iran hit military targets in israel whereas israel just bombs everything and everyone - women, children, journalists, schools, mosques, hospitals... all fair game)

"Does the world expect us to be well behaved victims whilst we're being killed? For us to be salaughtered without making a noise"?

Here's another one from 2018 around the time of the "Great March of Return", the attempt at peaceful resistance he alludes to. See page 1 of this thread to see how that was received.
Talks about the infamous charter, a Palestinian state on 1967 lines, i.e a 2 state solution, amongst other issues mainly the occupation and the punitive blockade.

Sinwar: 'It's time for a change, end the siege'

Over the course of 5 days, La Repubblica reporter Francesca Borri, writing for Yedioth Ahronoth, met and spoke to Hamas's leader in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar. Sinwar stresses prisoner exchange is an important part of any agreement with Israel, claims he is not interested in more fighting, but...

www.ynetnews.com

 

[Vic]

It’s not a one-way street.

We all want Hamas to end.

But we all want the far-right Israeli zionists to end too.

What reason was Hamas or any militias when not for the Nakbas, Sabra, Shatilla, Rafah by IDF?

Are they really the most moral in the world?

Just less than 24 hours ago, a child was shot right in the middle of an open street. His body was cut open. The crowd cautiously closing in to get a closer view of the injured child. And then after, the crowd airstriked.

Palestine child shot and the helpers airstriked

If that is the epitome of morality, who are we?

You mean, not so much a human shield as human bait?

 

[robbieh]

It's interesting you mention emigration, but the Irish diaspora wasn’t a simple choice; it was a response to severe oppression and famine, not an escape from conflict.

Also, comparing the Irish struggle for independence to the Palestinian situation ignores the complexities of both histories. The Irish sought sovereignty against colonial rule, while Palestinians face ongoing occupation and displacement. Framing the issue as one of 'bombing and murdering' is a reductive comparison and oversimplifies the legitimate struggles of both groups. In that case is dropping 40000 bombs on innocent civilians in under a year not 'bombing and murdering'.

I don't think the other poster is trying to take sides against 'jews'. Or even take a side at all. That's and extreme pov as is accusing a while country who played no part in the holocost of being the most anti semitic in the western world.

There's a big difference being anti aparteid, anti imperialist and not backing a government of a country that should be held to a higher accountability if you believe in democracy acting like a terrorist state, commiting war crimes on a daily basis, starving woman and children, cutting off water and aid in gaza, bombing large suburban areas populated by civilians despite showing on numerous occasions they are more than capable of a measured and targeted response, not to mention murdering journalists and aid workers, bombing schools hospitals and refugee camps and so on.

Brilliant post and that should be the end of it.

 

[Scoobz3]

The difference between the Irish & Palestinians is that most Irish people fucked off to places like the UK and USA when the going got tough in Ireland. More people emigrated from Ireland (9m) than the peak, pre-famine population (8.5m). And when you add in all the descendants of those migrants that 9m is now probably over 100m, compared to around 5m in Ireland now.

But the similarity is that they both turned to bombing and murdering to get their own way. You should have more in common with the Jews, who fought against an occupying power to get a homeland.

RE bombing and murdering to get their own way ?
How did Britain get Ireland in the first place? Did the Irish vote for it or did it have something to do with extreme volence in the first place ...

"The combination of warfare, famine and plague caused a huge mortality among the Irish population. William Petty estimated (in the 1655–56 Down Survey) that the death toll of the wars in Ireland since 1641 was over 618,000 people, or about 40% of the country's pre-war population."

"Nevertheless, the 1649–1653 campaign remains notorious in Irish popular memory as it was responsible for a huge death toll among the Irish population. The main reason for this was the counter-guerrilla tactics used by such commanders as Henry Ireton, John Hewson and Edmund Ludlow against the Catholic population from 1650, when large areas of the country still resisted the Parliamentary Army. These tactics included the wholesale burning of crops, forced population movement, and killing of civilians. One modern estimate estimated that 200,000 were killed, of which 137,000 were civilians."

Re fighting against an "occupying power" to get a homeland. There was not a country officially called Israel before 1948. The land that is now Israel was under the control of various empires and nations throughout history, including the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire.

RE You should have more in common with the Jews, who fought against an occupying power to get a homeland.

Really - the vast majority of Irish will have more in common with the Palestinians ! Only warped logic or bias could bring you to a different conclusion

 

[Vic]

Did Israel want to occupy Gaza for 30 years? So why did we invest billions in walls in each of their cities?
After all, when we wanted the abductees in less than a year and there is no Gaza and not one of their leaders is alive,
Israel wants to live in the Jewish state surrounded by 20 Arab countries, and where exactly will we go, who hasn't realized yet that this state Israel will not fold and live on its sword forever!
Those who want to live by our side out of a desire to live and let live will quickly come to an understanding, unfortunately the sentence from the sea to the river only symbolizes the desire of the Palestinian people - we don't recognize our neighbors, it's just us

It sounds like you don't recognise the "river to the sea" allusion.

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." —Likud Party Platform, 1977

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Military targets, not indiscriminate civilian ones. And it was certainly reprehensible but the sergeants were hung in retaliation for the hanging of three Irgun members by the British. And those three were convicted only of possessing weapons, not murder. But I assume you're OK with Jews being hung?

And after that incident, British policemen went on the rampage in Tel Aviv and murdered five innocent people. But again, they were Jews so, in your eyes, probably deserved it.

PB.
You are a very well respected contributor in here and I for one am grateful for the knowledge you impart in the FFP proceedings and such. You obviously have expertise in these matters.

You also obviously have an emotional attachment to this particular thread. However it doesn’t make you an expert in all global matters and I’ll admit I’m disappointed in what is coming across as a misguided take on Irish history.
Your views and your welcome to them. I however feel you have let your mask slip, so to speak.
I have no wish to turn this into an Irish history lesson, suffice to say, I think your arguments and analogies are all over the place. People in here won’t want to listen to me lecturing on the last thousand years from Brian Boru to the present. I could. Believe me, it’s a subject dear to my heart.

I’ll leave you and this thread in peace and hope that some day Israel itself can find peace, but I do think the world should look at places where conflict has been resolved peacefully rather than where there is continued violence, for guidance on how to come to equitable resolutions.

Hopefully the region will have its own equivalent of a Good Friday Agreement sooner rather than later.

 

[Vic]

Do you wake up singing to this song everyday?



This song was written 95 years ago. Far more than 30 years as you mentioned. By the leader of the Revisionist Zionist of Germany no less.

An interesting version, which destroys the (original?) version that suggests Jabotinsky at least hoped for peaceful co-existence.
"From the wealth of our land there shall prosper
The Arab, the Christian, and the Jew..."

Not that Jabotinsky really expected that to happen:

"Colonisation carries its own explanation, the only possible explanation, unalterable and as clear as daylight to every ordinary Jew and every ordinary Arab.​

"Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim. It lies in the very nature of things, and in this particular regard nature cannot be changed.

"We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism."​

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

It's interesting you mention emigration, but the Irish diaspora wasn’t a simple choice; it was a response to severe oppression and famine, not an escape from conflict.

Also, comparing the Irish struggle for independence to the Palestinian situation ignores the complexities of both histories. The Irish sought sovereignty against colonial rule, while Palestinians face ongoing occupation and displacement. Framing the issue as one of 'bombing and murdering' is a reductive comparison and oversimplifies the legitimate struggles of both groups. In that case is dropping 40000 bombs on innocent civilians in under a year not 'bombing and murdering'.

I don't think the other poster is trying to take sides against 'jews'. Or even take a side at all. That's and extreme pov as is accusing a while country who played no part in the holocost of being the most anti semitic in the western world.

There's a big difference being anti aparteid, anti imperialist and not backing a government of a country that should be held to a higher accountability if you believe in democracy acting like a terrorist state, commiting war crimes on a daily basis, starving woman and children, cutting off water and aid in gaza, bombing large suburban areas populated by civilians despite showing on numerous occasions they are more than capable of a measured and targeted response, not to mention murdering journalists and aid workers, bombing schools hospitals and refugee camps and so on.

If the other poster you are referring to is me, I think and hope I have chosen my words very carefully in this thread and don’t believe I have ever taken sides when it comes to to whose atrocities are acceptable and whose aren’t. Atrocities are atrocities no matter who perpetrated them.

I have also offered, very early on, a plausible reason why Irish people view the events in the Middle East the way we do and the protagonists in my analogies are not necessarily intuitively picked up from other nationalities that don’t have an intimate knowledge of our history. That’s fine.

I’ve said my piece and am done here.

Good luck to all in this debate. There are some sick puppies in here.

I hope you all find peace.

 

[dublinblue12]

If the other poster you are referring to is me, I think and hope I have chosen my words very carefully in this thread and don’t believe I have ever taken sides when it comes to to whose atrocities are acceptable and whose aren’t. Atrocities are atrocities no matter who perpetrated them.

I have also offered, very early on, a plausible reason why Irish people view the events in the Middle East the way we do and the protagonists in my analogies are not necessarily intuitively picked up from other nationalities that don’t have an intimate knowledge of our history. That’s fine.

I’ve said my piece and am done here.

Good luck to all in this debate. There are some sick puppies in here.

I hope you all find peace.

Nope, it's not all about you mate :)

 

[Vic]

The difference between the Irish & Palestinians is that most Irish people fucked off to places like the UK and USA when the going got tough in Ireland. More people emigrated from Ireland (9m) than the peak, pre-famine population (8.5m). And when you add in all the descendants of those migrants that 9m is now probably over 100m, compared to around 5m in Ireland now.

But the similarity is that they both turned to bombing and murdering to get their own way. You should have more in common with the Jews, who fought against an occupying power to get a homeland.

An occupying power? The one that made it possible for Jews to have a homeland there? Then realised what they'd done, and that the conditions (no displacement of the Arabs) were not going to be met?

 

[SamBlue]

This thing will go literally forever, because Israel's military might is totally unchallenged in the wider region.
And even more important (or depressing) is the fact that there are no red lines that Israel might cross that would actually change US position towards it. Their foreign policy is totally integrated with that of US. Even Germany, France and the UK are very close to it, I have no clue how and when it happened. Even Farage was caught happilly talking about Judeo-Christian 'us'. If there was a fight between us and Israelis we would find very soon whose side Americans are on.
Now whether this pushes Iran to finally getting nukes and what that will mean in a mid-term future, I am not sure I want to ponder about on Saturday morning.
And there is still reality of today that there are close to 7 mil Palestinians living and being treated in the Levant in the conditions far worse than Texan cow herds live in.
And we still pretend Israel's security and very survival is threatened.
Watching news these days I very often reach for the back of my head to check if I was plugged to my pod as a part of some huge Matrix.

 

[cucumberman]

Military targets, not indiscriminate civilian ones. And it was certainly reprehensible but the sergeants were hung in retaliation for the hanging of three Irgun members by the British. And those three were convicted only of possessing weapons, not murder. But I assume you're OK with Jews being hung?

And after that incident, British policemen went on the rampage in Tel Aviv and murdered five innocent people. But again, they were Jews so, in your eyes, probably deserved it.

Oh how pro Irgun ideology you are. More so than the British army.

The three Irgun only possessing weapons? A one-off?

#1
Haviv was involved in the prison escape of imprisoned Irgun and Palmach. He was not the direct killer of the killed British policeman and British officer, but he undoubtedly was the same gang from the same cars and armed with weapons.

Haviv was involved in the bombing of Goldschmidt building. He shot British officers to defend the other Irgun bombers who bombed the Goldschmidt. The building collapsed to ruin. Not the first building.

Haviv sprayed machine guns on police officers so the other freed Irguns escaped.

#2
Yehiam was involved in the gang who attacked the Goldschmidt Officer Club. 17 British soldiers were killed by that Irgun gang.

Yehiam planted the landmines that delayed the British officers for fear of explosions and being killed. Yet it was a loss for Irgun too, because Irgun was unable to maneouver through the landmines either. So that remaining Irgun were arrested. Too bad Yehiam, for Irgun that is.

#Yaakov Weiss
Well, Weiss literally planted bombs and mines against British officers, from British bridges to resorts, railways to road security and traffic. Like Haviv and Yehiam, he too was involved in the break-in of prisons, which killed a British policeman and British officer.

Colluding in the killing of police officers, more so in terrorist gang attacks, is pre-meditated murder.

Are you still a fan of Haviv, Yehiam and Weiss? And still denouncing Sergeant Martin and Sergeant Plaice? The former Sergeant by the way is a British Jew.

 

[KS55]

Why doesn't this surprise me. Ireland is the most antisemitic non-Muslim nation on earth. It's even more antisemitic than many Muslims nations.

Ireland has a history of being hostile to anything that is not Roman Catholic.
Right up to the modern day, immigration into Ireland was minimal for this reason. I don’t know whether Jews were particularly targeted or whether they were just one amongst many. Even now, they are het up about immigrants from Britain who go via NI and thence to the republic. I think they still have some way to go.

 

[KS55]

The countries who have destabilized the middle east are Britain, the US, Russia. Westerners have been dabbling in the area since oil fields were discovered in Persia in 1908.

The Trucial States go back to the early19th century.

 

[cucumberman]

You mean, not so much a human shield as human bait?

Without a doubt.

Yet the Israel spokesperson in our shores Mencer will deflect that. He is convinced that the IV drip burning alive Shaaban is “fake” and “fabricated”, and that they were all actors Mencer labelled as involved in “pallywood”.

How is he still here the mind boggles. And I thought Eylon Levy the fired US spokesperson is the worst propagandist.