Middle East Conflict

gordondaviesmoustache said:
I know I’ll get pelters for this from various quarters, but I’ve got broad shoulders: I fully understand Israel’s reaction to October 7th, because it was an entirely human reaction.

Doesn’t mean I agree with or endorse it, but I completely understand it.

What were those mad cunts in Hamas expecting? Absolutely insane decision. And it has fucked them and their cause for a generation, which is ultimately not a good thing.

Whatever it was borne from, it was a catastrophic decision.

This is unarguable as things stand.
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I take the point, but by the same token, do you understand October 7th itself, given all the decades of Israeli violence and oppression?

Edit: I see you've answered similar questions from a couple of others.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
The decision of let's attack isreal, commit an atrocity, cause the deaths of tens of thousands of your own people, its wrong. It's a wrong as what isreal are doing.

There are no sides, no right and wrong. They're all culpable for the deaths of innocent civilians.
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Of course it was wrong. But again I'll lay the question at your door. When caged up for years by a brutal regime and treated like animals what do you expect?
 
The blue phantom said:
This is one of the most evil regimes about that have had their foot on the Palestinians neck and refused to take it off for decades. So yeh let's say the day before the Hamas atrocities what other route do they take to try and end the Israelis brutal occupation?
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I’ve already answered that one with my original post. Not engaging in 7/10 would unquestionably have left the Palestinian people in a better position than they are now. I’m not clear how anyone can sensibly argue against this.

Your subsequent loading of the question with the part I have highlighted wasn’t your original question and is a completely separate point to the extent that it’s descending into a non sequitur.
 
Blue and true said:
O

It definitely undermines your point. We're talking about a people that have been oppressed for nigh on a century. As you say, their actions were deplorable and unjust, but don't be surprised when provocation oftentimes leads to a response.
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It doesn’t undermine my point at all, which is simply that 7/10 has made the fate of the Palestinian people worse.

Are you suggesting it hasn’t?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I’ve already answered that one with my original post. Not engaging in 7/10 would unquestionably have left the Palestinian people in a better position than they are now. I’m not clear how anyone can sensibly argue against this.

Your subsequent loading of the question with the part I have highlighted wasn’t your original question and is a completely separate point to the extent that it’s descending into a non sequitur.
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You haven't answered anything. You don't get why Hamas attacked a murdering brutal regime who keep their people in a prison camp. I get why they did it even though it was an abhorrent horrific attack.

We've had this conversation before and our views on Israel differ.
 
The blue phantom said:
You haven't answered anything. You don't get why Hamas attacked a murdering brutal regime who keep their people in a prison camp. I get why they did it even though it was an abhorrent horrific attack.

We've had this conversation before and our views on Israel differ.
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You are trying to take the argument away from the point I raised which is simply that 7/10 has worsened the lives of the Palestinian people.

Are you suggesting it hasn’t?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
You are trying to take the argument away from the point I raised which is simply that 7/10 has worsened the lives of the Palestinian people.

Are you suggesting it hasn’t?
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Of course it has as Israels Slaughter of tens of thousands of children is the end result. I'm merely pointing out being treated like rats for decades this was always on the cards.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I know I’ll get pelters for this from various quarters, but I’ve got broad shoulders: I fully understand Israel’s reaction to October 7th, because it was an entirely human reaction.

Doesn’t mean I agree with or endorse it, but I completely understand it.

What were those mad cunts in Hamas expecting? Absolutely insane decision. And it has fucked them and their cause for a generation, which is ultimately not a good thing.

Whatever it was borne from, it was a catastrophic decision.

This is unarguable as things stand.
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The whole conflict lacks common sense. Israel and Palestine are both recognised as individual countries/states by multiple others so are going nowhere and negates any historical argument either side has. All they need to do is sit down, negotiate a settlement and stick to it. All they need is reasonable, trustworthy people running both countries.
 
Palerider said:
The whole conflict lacks common sense. Israel and Palestine are both recognised as individual countries/states by multiple others so are going nowhere and negates any historical argument either side has. All they need to do is sit down, negotiate a settlement and stick to it. All they need is reasonable, trustworthy people running both countries.
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How can that even happen if the Israelis are still thieving land. This is one of the main obstacles. You know very well they aren't giving up the stolen land.
 
The blue phantom said:
Of course it has as Israels Slaughter of tens of thousands of children is the end result. I'm merely pointing out being treated like rats for decades this was always on the cards.
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I’m not disagreeing with you, if ‘on the cards’ means was a real possibility rather than an inevitability.

In terms of a solution going forward, it looks bleak but I guess the only hope can be further improvement of relations between Israel and the Arab Gulf States, more moderate regimes in Syria and Iran, and a collective effort to pour trillions into building a viable Palestinian state, which has to be in the best interests of everyone in the region. Not looking very likely as things stand though.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It doesn’t undermine my point at all, which is simply that 7/10 has made the fate of the Palestinian people worse.

Are you suggesting it hasn’t?
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We'll see in another hundred years.

Effectively you just expected non-resistance while Israel continued its annexation of the West Bank.

Imagine these are your alternatives:

Forego aspirations of an Arab Palestinian state, stay and live as individuals in the Jewish State; enjoy all the benefits of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel.
Or be helped to emigrate to one of the many countries where Arabs realize their national ambitions, or to any other destination in the world.

What would be your choice? Or might you think is there a violent alternative?
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
I know I’ll get pelters for this from various quarters, but I’ve got broad shoulders: I fully understand Israel’s reaction to October 7th, because it was an entirely human reaction.

Doesn’t mean I agree with or endorse it, but I completely understand it.

What were those mad cunts in Hamas expecting? Absolutely insane decision. And it has fucked them and their cause for a generation, which is ultimately not a good thing.

Whatever it was borne from, it was a catastrophic decision.

This is unarguable as things stand.
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The problem is that you're assuming there's some element of rationality or careful thought behind Oct 7th. It was the action of a group that hate Jews more than they love their fellow Palestinians.

The action of rational people, in government supposedly, wanting to better the lives of the people they represent would be to say "We'll stop our armed struggle in return for steps to normalise relations, remove the military threats to both our populations and increase economic development of Gaza".

That's why the questions of understanding the rationale for why October 7th happened are completely meaningless. They knew that there would be a severe reaction from the most right-wing Israeli government in its history. They knew that Netanyahu is no Rabin, Peres or even Begin, who knew the value of peace. They knew Netanyahu is a grubby, self-serving individual who is in hock to some real extremist, bloodthirsty elements and would have to satisfy those.

I'd say the reaction they got was pretty well the one they wanted, with the massive suffering they were prepared to countenance on the defenceless civilians they were supposed to be protecting, while they sheltered, well-fed and protected, in tunnels. Maybe they slightly underestimated the ferocity of the Israeli response but only slightly. But they wanted attention, which they got, but only at the cost of tens of thousands of their peoples' lives.
 
Vic said:
We'll see in anogther hundred years.

Effectively you just expected non-resistance while Israel continued its annexation of the West Bank.

Imagine these are your alternatives:

Forego aspirations of an Arab Palestinian state, stay and live as individuals in the Jewish State; enjoy all the benefits of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel.
Or be helped to emigrate to one of the many countries where Arabs realize their national ambitions, or to any other destination in the world.

What would be your choice? Or might you think is there a violent alternative?
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Whilst I understand the Palestinians not wanting to leave in the past, now when they go back what are they going to a big pile of rubble, like you said if they are treated as equals get a vote etc in Israel accept that or maybe go to another Arab state if they will have them, rather than their kids been killed. Let Israel have their land the history books will judge them accordingly and I hope not very favourably certainly in my eyes.
 
Blue Maverick said:
Whilst I understand the Palestinians not wanting to leave in the past, now when they go back what are they going to a big pile of rubble, like you said if they are treated as equals get a vote etc in Israel accept that or maybe go to another Arab state if they will have them, rather than their kids been killed. Let Israel have their land the history books will judge them accordingly and I hope not very favourably certainly in my eyes.
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And that was the plan in response to October 7th? Not to eliminate Hamas but to make Gaza uninhabitable? (For Arabs, of course.)
 
Blue Maverick said:
Whilst I understand the Palestinians not wanting to leave in the past, now when they go back what are they going to a big pile of rubble, like you said if they are treated as equals get a vote etc in Israel accept that or maybe go to another Arab state if they will have them, rather than their kids been killed. Let Israel have their land the history books will judge them accordingly and I hope not very favourably certainly in my eyes.
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That will never happen. The state of Israel is a state founded on Jewish supremacy.

Without immigration of settlers under the right of return and the birthrate being inflated up by the ultra orthodox community, the Jewish population would have already become a minority.

If they took in the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank and gave them equal rights then the Jewish state is no longer the Jewish state.
 
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