Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

The Israel Government higher ups are declaring that they are doing no wrong; and if anything this is just the beginning of what they intend to do. The Israeli government is the zionism that it has been since 1890s . But of What %age in Israel is pro-Zionism?

Also. The Israeli government has no remorse.
————

 

[Vic]

Oh okay... don't release the hostages then fine - the Palestinians are signing their own death warrants. Why were the innocent people captured in the first place on 7/10? Settle that first and then stop turning the release of the innocent hostages into a huge celebration.

Hamas have a responsibility here too.

Oh and for the purpose of this specific issue forget history and resolve this specific issue.

Maybe I am hopelessly optimistic. I'd much rather that than being suicidally stubborn.... especially when it's not my life at risk,

There's your problem. "Settle that first...." I assume you mean the taking of hostages, but you don't want the answer to why were they captured. One answer is obvious - as bargaining chips to get the release of the thousands of Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons.

You really can't progress with this so long as you think this started on 7/10. "Forget history" = blissful ignorance.

 

[BigJoe#1]

They're not. Israel stopped the process of releasing hostages.

Nothing stops them from saying we will release all the people we captured on 7/10 does it?

You clearly don't like Israel but you need, in the interest of humanity need to get the rest of the world on the side of the Palestinians. If ou don't agree then fine but unfortunately you will reap what you sew.

The choice is Hamas's, I mean what have they got to lose if the let the kidnapped innocent people free?

 

[BlueTG]

They're not. Israel stopped the process of releasing hostages.

Interestingly, the **** in charge of Israel also states they Israel will not stop short of completing their wars aims which includes the release or handover of all hostages. I know eliminating Hamas is another aim, but seems a little vague and surely an easy work around continuing to level Palestine and land grab beyond the release of hostages.

The hostages provide an excuse for Israel to continue in their relentless cleansing unchallenged. It’s all a little convenient that they violated their own handover agreement.

 

[BlueTG]

Nothing stops them from saying we will release all the people we captured on 7/10 does it?

You clearly don't like Israel but you need, in the interest of humanity need to get the rest of the world on the side of the Palestinians. If ou don't agree then fine but unfortunately you will reap what you sew.

The choice is Hamas's, I mean what have they got to lose if the let the kidnapped innocent people free?

The opportunity to release thousands of captured ‘prisoners’ that Israel hold from Palestine.

 

[cucumberman]

So why are Hamas, if they see this happening, refusing to release the hostages?

Hamas wanted to go to Phase 2 as per the signed agreements. Phase 2 is when more of the Israel hostages / POWs were to be released.

Israel dithered. In Phase 1 the requirement was for IDF to retreat and leave Gaza entirely. IDF never left. They stayed at the the Philadelphi corridor, trespassed North Gaza at least 3 times (recorded by evidence) and killed more than 100 Gazans during the ceasefire.

Israel never wanted Phase 2 trade-off. Trump didn’t do any better either. His ‘all hell breaks loose’ fanned the flames, and US bombing of Yemen is example for Israel bombing of Gaza (and West Bank)

They are cronies, twiddle dee and twiddle dum. How about us?

 

[BigJoe#1]

The Israel Government higher ups are declaring that they are doing no wrong; and if anything this is just the beginning of what they intend to do. The Israeli government is the zionism that it has been since 1890s . But of What %age in Israel is pro-Zionism?

Also. The Israeli government has no remorse.
————

Absolutely disgraceful..... have you got footage from the 7/10 attack? just release the hostages and this could stop.

IF it doesn't then you will have the whole world behind you in the utter condemnation of Israel.

 

[BlueTG]

Absolutely disgraceful..... have you got footage from the 7/10 attack? just release the hostages and this could stop.

IF it doesn't then you will have the whole world behind you in the utter condemnation of Israel.

If the whole world isn’t condemning the ethic cleansing, land grabbing, civilian and child murdering campaign nearly 2 years into this, then they’re not going to suddenly roar up their arms and step-in on the release of tens of more hostages.

The world’s inaction speaks much louder than that, there’s something else about Israel that other’s are pussyfooting about.

 

[cucumberman]

Absolutely disgraceful..... have you got footage from the 7/10 attack? just release the hostages and this could stop.

IF it doesn't then you will have the whole world behind you in the utter condemnation of Israel.

Yes I have watched all footage from the attack. And I have watched as much footage from before 7/10/23

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Absolutely disgraceful..... have you got footage from the 7/10 attack? just release the hostages and this could stop.

You actually believe that?

 

[Palerider]

Nothing stops them from saying we will release all the people we captured on 7/10 does it?

You clearly don't like Israel but you need, in the interest of humanity need to get the rest of the world on the side of the Palestinians. If ou don't agree then fine but unfortunately you will reap what you sew.

The choice is Hamas's, I mean what have they got to lose if the let the kidnapped innocent people free?

I'm with you totally and have said similar in the past. The Palestinians cannot (currently and in the forseeeable future) win this militarily. They have to 'fight' smart, politically and diplomatically, to gain the moral high ground. They will not achieve anything positive with Hamas in place. The Israelis are the most battle ready people on the planet and having gone through the holocaust where many say 'why did you not fight back rather than just walk into the gas chambers' have almost certainly decided individually and collectively that this time they will fight to the death. No right thinking individual wants either side to 'win' because 'winning' almost certainly means the total eradication of the other side. What is needed is that both sides accept the right of the other to live in peace AND without fear. Unfortunately that simple statement seems well beyond the hard line Israelis and Palestinians (and their supporters) who dominate both societies.

 

[cucumberman]

I'm with you totally and have said similar in the past. The Palestinians cannot (currently and in the forseeeable future) win this militarily. They have to 'fight' smart, politically and diplomatically, to gain the moral high ground. They will not achieve anything positive with Hamas in place. The Israelis are the most battle ready people on the planet and having gone through the holocaust where many say 'why did you not fight back rather than just walk into the gas chambers' have almost certainly decided individually and collectively that this time they will fight to the death. No right thinking individual wants either side to 'win' because 'winning' almost certainly means the total eradication of the other side. What is needed is that both sides accept the right of the other to live in peace AND without fear. Unfortunately that simple statement seems well beyond the hard line Israelis and Palestinians (and their supporters) who dominate both societies.

No one wants aggression, especially on children. But if this one society has a known decades-old track record of killing children and no condemnation no remorse no admission, the victims will resort to extremism seeking vengeance.

IDF in the early 2000s



Many videos of such heinous acts by the Israeli Forces were a lot during the time on Torrents in the late 90s early 00s.

 

[Palerider]

No one wants aggression, especially on children. But if this one society has a known decades-old track record of killing children and no condemnation no remorse no admission, the victims will resort to extremism seeking vengeance.

IDF in the early 2000s



Many videos of such heinous acts by the Israeli Forces were a lot during the time on Torrents in the late 90s early 00s.

And has 'resorting to extremism seeking vengeance' made the Palestinians lot better or worse would you say?

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

Sometimes you just can't win, quite common throughout history.

 

[cucumberman]

And has 'resorting to extremism seeking vengeance' made the Palestinians lot better or worse would you say?

Between 2000 and 2013, how many Palestinian children were killed by the IDF?

1,518 children

Between 2000 and 2013, how many Palestinian children underwent life-altering injuries?

9,014 children

A majority of the IDF were either pardoned OR slap on the wrist

 

[Palerider]

Between 2000 and 2013, how many Palestinian children were killed by the IDF?

1,518 children

Between 2000 and 2013, how many Palestinian children underwent life-altering injuries?

9,014 children

A majority of the IDF were either pardoned OR slap on the wrist

And how many children since 7/10?

 

[cucumberman]

Before 7th October 2023. Decades before. By the most moral army IDF and the most dignified government the Israel government.

Photos are plenty. Too plenty. But not as widespread as the ‘40 beheaded babies’ and the ‘child in the oven’

 

[BigJoe#1]

Hamas wanted to go to Phase 2 as per the signed agreements. Phase 2 is when more of the Israel hostages / POWs were to be released.

Israel dithered. In Phase 1 the requirement was for IDF to retreat and leave Gaza entirely. IDF never left. They stayed at the the Philadelphi corridor, trespassed North Gaza at least 3 times (recorded by evidence) and killed more than 100 Gazans during the ceasefire.

Israel never wanted Phase 2 trade-off. Trump didn’t do any better either. His ‘all hell breaks loose’ fanned the flames, and US bombing of Yemen is example for Israel bombing of Gaza (and West Bank)

They are cronies, twiddle dee and twiddle dum. How about us?

Fair enough and ou

You actually believe that?

What are the alternatives?

Keep hostages and be bombed to death with world opinion against you

Or

Release the hostages and maybe get bombed to death with more of the world support behind you?

Not great choices, but argue until you're blue in the face these are the choices they have.... Over to you, but think about your innocents whilst reaching your decision.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Yes I have watched all footage from the attack. And I have watched as much footage from before 7/10/23

And you're comfortable with what took place?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Fair enough and ou

What are the alternatives?

Keep hostages and be bombed to death with world opinion against you

Or

Release the hostages and maybe get bombed to death with more of the world support behind you?

Not great choices, but argue until you're blue in the face these are the choices they have.... Over to you, but think about your innocents whilst reaching your decision.

I’m not sure there are many options but the notion that Israel will stop what it’s doing once the hostages are released doesn’t bear any scrutiny. I’ve got pelters for this previously, but Hamas royally fucked up on 7th October. I understand all the arguments around decades of oppression, and lack of options, and I accept the overarching principles around that, but that cannot mean any decision that Hamas makes that arises from that is justifiable or well judged. That’s a ridiculous premise. Every action has consequences, irrespective of where they are rooted.

Trying to be as dispassionate as I can, more targeted and controlled hostage taking would have (imo) elicited a different response because the level of international support for Israel would have been discernibly different. The act of entering Israeli territory and going on the rampage in that way was always going to provoke an extreme response, because of the history of the Jewish people and human territorial instincts more widely, especially when the violated party is far more powerful. That’s just the way it is, lamentably.

And so we are left with this absolute shitshow. Untold misery and hurt, and zero prospect of resolution. The Palestinian people, quite understandably, must hate Israel and Israelis now in a way that cannot ever be resolved. And because of that Israel will feel it needs to double down, in order to protect itself. And so the whole sorry cycle will continue.

At the end of the day, for all the technological leaps and advances in learning we’ve made as a species in the last few thousand years, we’re still basically just upright apes arguing about some territory (when there’s more than enough for everyone) and whose sky fairy is the best.

Due to a combination of those factors, and our ingenuity, we’re basically completely fucked as a species.