Might as well give up now?

Not in the slightest bit worried by Platini and his new rules.

Do any fans not think that the owner and his advisor's wont have this covered by the time it kicks in?

Forget City, the sheer amount of clubs around Europe that will also fall foul of these new rules will basically mean that either they wont be enforced or the competitions will be devalued and Platini and UEFA wont want that!

Any special dispensations given to certain clubs whilst others are treated less generously will see years and years of lawsuits and the very real possibility of a break away league that all the big boys will jump at due to the TV revenues available.

Lots of hot air at the moment but when the time comes, i can almost guarantee that it just wont happen.
 
blueinsa said:
Not in the slightest bit worried by Platini and his new rules.

Do any fans not think that the owner and his advisor's wont have this covered by the time it kicks in?

Forget City, the sheer amount of clubs around Europe that will also fall foul of these new rules will basically mean that either they wont be enforced or the competitions will be devalued and Platini and UEFA wont want that!

Any special dispensations given to certain clubs whilst others are treated less generously will see years and years of lawsuits and the very real possibility of a break away league that all the big boys will jump at due to the TV revenues available.

Lots of hot air at the moment but when the time comes, i can almost guarantee that it just wont happen.

That's my take, too.

I've got a funny feeling this thing may totally collapse at some point.

I'm no legal expert but it just doesn't stack up.

As I said earlier, what industry denies itself huge investment?
 
Why is everone getting so uptight about something,which may never happen !!
Have you forgotten the meeting that Vicki Kloss had with UEFA ??
And what was the outcome ??
Exactly !!
Not one of us knows.Likewise the media,who once again spout shit,just to make a NEGATIVE headline.
Everyone please forget it !!
Our Owner and his Legal Team will have gone through the rules of this Fair Play system,with a fine tooth comb and probably as we speak,City will be making inroads to generate more business and income.
 
Chick Counterfly said:
Garry.Cook said:
Don't know how true this is but my mate (a final year economics student) rekcons the City legal and financial teams are so on-the-ball with these regulations that they have plans a, b, c, d, e, f.....

Basically he suggested that even if breaking even looked nigh on impossible, our Sheikh could (in an overly dramatised world) stroll into the Walmart HQ, purchase the Walmart/ASDA empire under the City holding company name and all the profits would sit nicely in the City books.

Obviously we wouldn't go to this extreme but is he right? Could we just buy an already succesful outlet and count the profits towards breaking even?

nope, has to be 'football related' income, to count. that means, related to the ground, the players, the club, the brand.

Even if we renamed Walmart 'Citymart', it would be us sponsoring them, their business doesn't have anything to do with our club.

This is why we're wondering about them developing Sportcity, because it would be true that any income gained from developments around the ground would count, within reason.

"<UAE team> today smashed the world transfer record with the capture of Paraguyan international Roque Santa Cruz from Manchester City. The fee is undisclosed but believed to be in the region of £250m rising to £270m based on performance-related clauses."

nope, rules exist to prevent assets from being sold for more than their 'fair value'.. same applies to sponsorship.

The comment that sparked this article is just a clarification of how UEFA want the results to be presented. Their first goal will be transparency, they don't want clubs to try and hide their losses through the flick of a pen. Everything else depends on how hard a line they want to take.

Clubs will be negotiating furiously with UEFA to find a middle ground, so they at least know where they stand before the first round of assessments takes place.

Large numbers of clubs will turn in losses, but refusing entry to scores of clubs would be the most extraordinary thing.

My guess is the middle ground will be; you show us absolutely everything, make every last effort to comply, come up with a genuine strategy for the future, and you will probably get the benefit of the doubt, for now.

UEFA run club football, but they also benefit hugely from it. If they ban Chelsea, Inter, City, Zenit (let alone Barca, Utd, Real), they are throwing away huge amounts of commercial income, and risking those clubs, and others, launching a breakaway competition.

Sure, UEFA would challenge it, ban the players involved from International Football.... but it would be a hell of a fight under European Law.

UEFA are in a privileged situation, granted all sorts of special exemptions and powers under European law. Acting 'unreasonably', opening all that up to serious, sustained legal challenge, is not in their interest.

Neither is devaluing the Champs League by refusing entry to the best teams.

The commercial income from the CL trickles down to every part of the organisation, and the people who benefit are the ones who vote in the executives and the president. That income is derived from the clubs. UEFA must maintain a consensus with them.

UEFA will push it so far, but they want to make a difference and retain order, not start a war. The onus is on everyone to be reasonable. Clubs must manage their finances reasonably, UEFA must regulate reasonably, or it's armageddon. It's not unusual for upcoming commercial enterprises to post losses, whilst still growing in value and solidity.
Tend to agree with this - a mixture of carrot and stick and eventually everyone will be happy with the resulting fudge (if you can make fudge from a carrot and a stick :0 )
 
Didsbury Dave said:
As I said earlier, what industry denies itself huge investment?

The whole point of this bollox was the results of meetings held with the cartel of Europe's big clubs and the sheer fear and desperation they felt when our owner came along. The cartel was soon to be broken and one of them was in real danger of missing out on what is their right! Politics of envy and nothing more!

By the time this kicks in, we will be in the best financial state of any club in world football yet the politics of envy, coupled with the fear of the cartel will mean that they will want to see us kept out of their little club.

Imagine Platini trying to justify to the worlds press that the rags debt and real Madrid's debt really isn't a problem but City im afraid are banned even though they have no debt to creditors because our owner uses all of his OWN money!

Let them try i say because i honestly feel they will be picking a fight that they just cant win.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
blueinsa said:
Not in the slightest bit worried by Platini and his new rules.

Do any fans not think that the owner and his advisor's wont have this covered by the time it kicks in?

Forget City, the sheer amount of clubs around Europe that will also fall foul of these new rules will basically mean that either they wont be enforced or the competitions will be devalued and Platini and UEFA wont want that!

Any special dispensations given to certain clubs whilst others are treated less generously will see years and years of lawsuits and the very real possibility of a break away league that all the big boys will jump at due to the TV revenues available.

Lots of hot air at the moment but when the time comes, i can almost guarantee that it just wont happen.

That's my take, too.

I've got a funny feeling this thing may totally collapse at some point.

I'm no legal expert but it just doesn't stack up.

As I said earlier, what industry denies itself huge investment?


Exactly,

this is where i struggle, We are still going through a worldwide recession and it is becoming apparent that cmany clubs are in the sh1t, You have owners of two north west clubs club who come in plunges them into masses of debt. Along with this they also take masses of money out of the clubs.

On the other had you get an oil shiek who buys a "peoples club" wipes out it's debts, brings in top players, distrubutes masses of maney into the football industry and aims to regenerate the area creating jobs and a great future. He does all of this and converts the spend into equity.

One of these owners is ruining football wile the other two are lying back having thier cocks sucked.

this rule will fall on it's arse believe me.
 
abu13 said:
Didsbury Dave said:
That's my take, too.

I've got a funny feeling this thing may totally collapse at some point.

I'm no legal expert but it just doesn't stack up.

As I said earlier, what industry denies itself huge investment?


Exactly,

this is where i struggle, We are still going through a worldwide recession and it is becoming apparent that cmany clubs are in the sh1t, You have owners of two north west clubs club who come in plunges them into masses of debt. Along with this they also take masses of money out of the clubs.

On the other had you get an oil shiek who buys a "peoples club" wipes out it's debts, brings in top players, distrubutes masses of maney into the football industry and aims to regenerate the area creating jobs and a great future. He does all of this and converts the spend into equity.

One of these owners is ruining football wile the other two are lying back having thier cocks sucked.

this rule will fall on it's arse believe me.

I cannot believe there is not a legal angle on this - especially if another big club or two join forces with us.

Imagine if us, Inter and Real were to mount a serious and sustained legal challenge to this. It could throw football into disarray.

Bosman did it and he's got no cash!
 
Real are bankrolled by the Spanish Government.

Barca, despite their Unicef sponsorship, have some shady backers (Usmanov - that pillar of society)

That won't fly unless those rules aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on.

And no way our owners are going to put this much money on a number that is not even on the wheel.

Chill Wins-ton. And watch the ever-lasting City dynasty we are owed come to fruition.
 
Heres one for you guys and gals ... a sort of straw poll.

UEFA rules make deals subject to the arms length test i.e. some of the examples quoted like RSC sold to the UAE team for 250M or Ethihad sponsoring the ground for 100M would not pass the test as other posters have pointed out.

But,what about season tickets? if we doubled the price they would still be comparable to UK's other top clubs and would therefore pass the test.Now,I accept that affordability comes into play here and I dont think our current gates would be maintained if we did or replaced by fans with deeper pockets quickly enough.I dont personally think this would be fair either.

So heres the question,would you pay double for your ST if you got something else for it as a member bonus? .. could be Etihad air miles/rail tickets/garden centre vouchers/gym/hotel/casino membership in Sports City? etc.

Double income for our beloved club but added value for the member.There is no way UEFA could argue this one breached or manipulated the rules.Our season prices are in kilter and as a club that truly values it's fans,it gives them a 5 star experience.

Just a thought!

I cant post new threads yet so if someone wants to cut and paste this into a new thread and see what the view of the first set of respondants is,it may be quite interesting.
 
he's very prolific

Q&A on Financial Fair Play and the mountain Manchester City have to climb
Nick Harris Friday, 8 October 2010 at 12:53 pm

Uefa’s Financial Fair Play regulations won’t wipe out the tradition of benefactor involvement in football. They will merely lead to bans from European competition for clubs whose owners want to spend lots of their own money building up those clubs. Those who want to spend freely can do so, but be barred.
It’s a personal point of view that any owner should be allowed to spend their own cash on their own football club, with the proviso that the money is given freely and without conditions, not as loans but as equity, and provides some kind of guarantees of middle-term stability if they walk away. Maybe future funds for a set period could be held in escrow.
On the one hand that still allows benefactor growth (see Blackburn under Jack Walker, Middlesbrough under Steve Gibson, Chelsea, Man City, Wolfsburg, Bayer Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Zenit and on and on and on). On the other hand it allows some security in the the catastrophic event that the benefactor disappears for some reason, or dies.
It’s easy to argue that Portsmouth went pop, for example, because supposed benefactors turned out not to be. And a more dramatic case of meteoric growth then sudden collapse was seen at Gretna in Scotland. The self-made millionaire Brooks Mileson took the village side from nowhere to the SPL and Europe in a few short years, then his health failed, he withdrew, and then died. And Gretna effectively passed away too.
Brooks Mileson was a good guy, at least in terms of his generosity towards football, and a likeable bloke who I met and interviewed on a number of occasions, as here. But ultimately his demise and that of Gretna showed the dangers of an ownership model where one man or one group pumps in money on an unsustainable basis.
If Roman Abramovich had suddenly become indisposed circa 2004 or 2005, for example, Chelsea would have been in serious trouble, the kind of trouble they were in shortly before he bought them – virtually insolvent. They’re slowly, slowly moving towards sustainability but still too many clubs rely on the largesse of one person. That’s why medium-term, ring-fenced guarantees of some kind are attractive. That’s why I personally have no problem with benefactor funding – as long as such guarantees are in place.
But Uefa does have a problem with it, and the FFP regulations outlaw it aside from in limited amounts in the early years of FFP. And that’s why Manchester City have a problem in the years ahead: because they will need to make some record-breaking leaps in income to have the tiniest prayer of meeting Uefa’s FFP regs. Why? (For a flavour see the table below). And briefly . . .
Q: What’s the logic behind FFP?
A: According to Uefa (in more detail here): “The regulations are aimed at bringing about a situation which curbs the excessive spending and inflated transfer fees and player salaries that have endangered football in recent years. They call for greater discipline and more rational financial behaviour from clubs, and encourage clubs to operate more responsibly by not spending more than they earn, while settling their liabilities punctually. The measures are designed to protect European football’s long-term health and viability, as well as the integrity and smooth running of the competitions, and also stimulate long-term investment in areas such as youth development and the upgrading of sports installations.
“The regulations are aimed at bringing about a situation which curbs the excessive spending and inflated transfer fees and player salaries that have endangered football in recent years. They call for greater discipline and more rational financial behaviour from clubs, and encourage clubs to operate more responsibly by not spending more than they earn, while settling their liabilities punctually.
“The measures are designed to protect European football’s long-term health and viability, as well as the integrity and smooth running of the competitions, and also stimulate long-term investment in areas such as youth development and the upgrading of sports installations.”

Q: What does it mean in numbers?
A: See the table below for detail but basically from 2011-12, any club with serious long-term ambitions of playing in Europe shouldn’t be losing more than £8.7m per year.

Q: And how do City measure up at the moment?
A: Losses of £121m in 2009-10, projected losses of more than that in 2010-11, perhaps £130m, maybe more, and this isn’t just guessing, this is sensibly projected and ratified by people who understands City’s books and spending.

Q: How can you be sure of what they’ll make / lose?
A: You can’t be 100 per cent sure because only Sheikh Mansour knows what he’s going to do, but certain income streams are pretty well fixed and predictable, including two of the three main streams: match-day income and TV cash. The only stream with massive flexibility, for now, is commercial income, ie: money from sponsorships and partnerships.

Q: And the outgoings?
A: Operating expenses are also fairly predictable (what it costs to run the club on a day-to-day basis) and wages are the biggest part of that. They were £133m in 2009-10 and will be something like £160m in 2010-11. After that, City hope wages will stabilise. It is one of the gambles they’re taking: faith that wages will stabilise and not need to rise to chase on-pitch success.

Q: What other gambles are they taking?
A: In short, and in all areas, they’re speculating to accumulate, spending big now on top players transfer fees and massive wage packets in order to try to get success on the pitch that will get them Champions League football and bigger income to pay for those top players and their big wages. They’re also investing heavily in City in general, in facilities, in the local community. All that is laudable but you cannot get away from the fact that the vast majority of the money so far has gone on players and their wages to try to win.

Q: So what needs to happen for City to break even, and can they achieve it?
A: They need to earn more than they spend. To do that, they’ll need Champions League football quickly, to boost their income, and on top of that they’ll need huge increased commercial income. A lot of this will probably arrive, from firms in the Middle East wanting a part of Sheikh Mansour’s project. But City need to be careful that they don’t fall foul of Uefa’s “related party” sponsorship rules, which basically outlaw “mates rates” commercial deals. City believe they can steer clear of punitive action on this front, but only time will tell. If they suddenly announce a stadium naming rights deal for £50m a season, for example, it will quickly be pointed out that there is virtually no precedent for big-money naming rights deals on existing stadiums.

Q: Any other difficulties?
A: City have c.£250m of unamortised transfer spending to put through their books in the next five years. In laymen’s terms and crudely calculated, they will start every season till 2015 with a £50m red hole in the accounts even before they start because of signings already made. For accounting reasons they cannot get rid of that burden (barring the shipping out of the players who they need to win matches), and if they buy any more players, the burden will only get bigger.

Q: How can City make it work, and comply with FFP by 2011-12, when monitoring starts?
A: They say they’ll produce their own players to negate the need to spend on transfers. They say increased income from commercial deals will boost their coffers and help them break even. They hope that Champions League football is around the corner and that it will attract players who are desperate for top-level action and therefore won’t want massive salaries as well. They hope, in short, to make loads of new money and keep costs stable or decrease them. It’s ambitious in a number of senses.

Q: Uefa will simply let them off if they fail to comply, surely?
A: Absolutely not, Uefa insist. Rules are rules. There may be a bit of flexibility around the edges, but any serious leeway for individual clubs means the whole system will collapse, and that’s not something Michel Platini wants to allow to happen.
A: According to Uefa (in more detail here): “The regulations are aimed at bringing about a situation which curbs the excessive spending and inflated transfer fees and player salaries that have endangered football in recent years. They call for greater discipline and more rational financial behaviour from clubs, and encourage clubs to operate more responsibly by not spending more than they earn, while settling their liabilities punctually. The measures are designed to protect European football’s long-term health and viability, as well as the integrity and smooth running of the competitions, and also stimulate long-term investment in areas such as youth development and the upgrading of sports installations.

task.jpg
 

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