Munich Anniversary

Torino had their whole team wiped out in 1949 having dominated Italian football for the previous 10 years. Unfortunately they never recovered from their air crash and are still struggling between Serie A and B to this day. However, I’m not sure how many people in football are aware of the story of ‘Grande Torino’
 
Maly Wilson said:
Really? I thought it proved that our fan base behaved themselves impeccably that day......really surprised a blue doesn’t agree with that?

How do you think Leeds or Liverpool fans would’ve behaved if they had’ve been playing United that day?
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No, my point was the same tossers who would regularly sing Munich songs at the time would still sing them after that day and think nothing of it. They didn’t that day because of the potential backlash from our own fans and how much our club would have got slated for it. It wasn’t about respect for the victims as it carried on at many away games In concourses and in pubs after.

Obviously I’m talking about a minority of our fans and with things like this it is always a minority. Basically the little hypocrites bottled it that day and nobody can really say those idiots who carried it on after were respectful to the victims because it was never about that to them.
 
johnevans said:
Well said..

One of my earliest memories is being hoiked up onto The Old Man's shoulders to see United's 1958 Cup Final team being greeted at the Town Hall in Albert Square. To give him a rest, our neighbour from Hulme (who was a season ticket holder at Old Trafford along with his wife, both of them watching United home and away for many years) also let me sit on his shoulders to see above the crowd. My aunts and uncles were there too, all Blues mixing with their Red friends to honour the team that had defied the odds after that dreadful air disaster.

Because it was the city's disaster as much as anything else. We shouted for Matt Busby because he had been a Blue in the great City side of but 20 years before, along with Frank Swift who had died in the crash. Nearer to home, my mother had been a babysitter as a young woman to Albert Scanlon, who survived the crash. She would have been devastated if he'd been one of those who lost their lives that day.

Growing up in the 60s, the disaster only came back into our consciousness as kids when on February 6th notices would appear in the Manchester Evening News' 'In Memoriam' column. There would always be something from Duncan Edwards' family, together with Roger Byrne's, David Pegg's and Tommy Taylor's families. I recall as a student on the 15th anniversary in 1973 posting a newspaper clipping which had the complete poem 'Flowers Of Manchester' on a university noticeboard. Nobody touched it or desecrated it. Because it was the city's tragedy.

Sadly, United haven't covered themselves with glory in dealing with the tragedy. In the 60s, the treatment of the players and other staff was frankly appalling (forcing players and their families out of club houses, minimal financial support, not even a whiff of a testimonial to generate funds to support those affected and so on and so on). The initial 'strategy' always seemed to be 'benign ignorance' and not to allow themselves to be opened up to legal challenges.. if we don't mention it, it and everyone will go away.. and our supine press/media was complicit in this, never highlighting what was going on, hardly ever mentioning the Munich disaster until February 6th loomed again..

I spoke with Albert Scanlon on a few occasions in the 70s when I was a student and would occasionally meet my parents in town of a Saturday night for a drink with them at Sinclair's Oyster Bar when they would often bump into Albert. He was clearly very upset about the way he and others had been treated by United post-Munich. On the other hand, they had put up a clock at Old Trafford, so that was that, then..

Fast forward to the early 90s. Time had passed, fans from various clubs including our own had long begun the dreadful chanting that referenced the Munich air disaster and football was beginning to gear up for the modern age that we now know, involving not just mega-bucks sponsorships and tv deals but also Stock Market flotations of clubs and the like. United led the UK charge on all of these things. And that's when the Marketing Johnnies started taking over our great game. It isn't unfair, I believe, to state that this was the time when the Munich air disaster was slowly turned into a marketing tool by these people, becoming part of the legend of the club alone, when it became all about United and nothing and no-one else.

And as usual when people at a distance from the thing get their greedy marketing mitts on something like this, they messed it up, culminating in the farce that was the 1998 testimonial on behalf of those who had lost their lives 40 years before. The obscene amount of money paid to secure Eric Cantona's involvement in that game when, yet again, ordinary people were asked to dip their hands in their pockets, was grossly insulting. 'Munich' has become, in the hands of these people, part of the 'branding' to be exploited, that is quite clear..

However, none of United's actions/behaviours justifies anyone chanting vile obscenities regarding the Munich air disaster. When I hear our fellow Blues use this awful event to poke fun at our Red rivals, I despair at their stupidity and crass insensitivity. Like other Blues on here today, I've noticed that it has reduced over recent years (largely, I think, because of the outstanding behaviour of Blues at the 2008 50th commemoration at the OId Trafford derby). I hope it will disappear completely. And when Munich is commemorated in the future, I also hope it will be the city's loss at the heart of it.
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This should be seen by not just us blues but other supporters . Fantastic post and from the heart
 
Craig said:
No, my point was the same tossers who would regularly sing Munich songs at the time would still sing them after that day and think nothing of it. They didn’t that day because of the potential backlash from our own fans and how much our club would have got slated for it. It wasn’t about respect for the victims as it carried on at many away games In concourses and in pubs after.

Obviously I’m talking about a minority of our fans and with things like this it is always a minority. Basically the little hypocrites bottled it that day and nobody can really say those idiots who carried it on after were respectful to the victims because it was never about that to them.
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Yes it did prove we were impeccable that day. Again, really surprised you’ve stated that you disagree with that point right at the top of your post

However, your point makes more sense now you’ve explained what ‘proved nothing’ means.

Let’s hope our fans are impeccable again today at Anfield, like we were for the Hillsborough (or was it Hysel) memorial the other year ;)

Up the fucking blues......
 
johnevans said:
Well said..

One of my earliest memories is being hoiked up onto The Old Man's shoulders to see United's 1958 Cup Final team being greeted at the Town Hall in Albert Square. To give him a rest, our neighbour from Hulme (who was a season ticket holder at Old Trafford along with his wife, both of them watching United home and away for many years) also let me sit on his shoulders to see above the crowd. My aunts and uncles were there too, all Blues mixing with their Red friends to honour the team that had defied the odds after that dreadful air disaster.

Because it was the city's disaster as much as anything else. We shouted for Matt Busby because he had been a Blue in the great City side of but 20 years before, along with Frank Swift who had died in the crash. Nearer to home, my mother had been a babysitter as a young woman to Albert Scanlon, who survived the crash. She would have been devastated if he'd been one of those who lost their lives that day.

Growing up in the 60s, the disaster only came back into our consciousness as kids when on February 6th notices would appear in the Manchester Evening News' 'In Memoriam' column. There would always be something from Duncan Edwards' family, together with Roger Byrne's, David Pegg's and Tommy Taylor's families. I recall as a student on the 15th anniversary in 1973 posting a newspaper clipping which had the complete poem 'Flowers Of Manchester' on a university noticeboard. Nobody touched it or desecrated it. Because it was the city's tragedy.

Sadly, United haven't covered themselves with glory in dealing with the tragedy. In the 60s, the treatment of the players and other staff was frankly appalling (forcing players and their families out of club houses, minimal financial support, not even a whiff of a testimonial to generate funds to support those affected and so on and so on). The initial 'strategy' always seemed to be 'benign ignorance' and not to allow themselves to be opened up to legal challenges.. if we don't mention it, it and everyone will go away.. and our supine press/media was complicit in this, never highlighting what was going on, hardly ever mentioning the Munich disaster until February 6th loomed again..

I spoke with Albert Scanlon on a few occasions in the 70s when I was a student and would occasionally meet my parents in town of a Saturday night for a drink with them at Sinclair's Oyster Bar when they would often bump into Albert. He was clearly very upset about the way he and others had been treated by United post-Munich. On the other hand, they had put up a clock at Old Trafford, so that was that, then..

Fast forward to the early 90s. Time had passed, fans from various clubs including our own had long begun the dreadful chanting that referenced the Munich air disaster and football was beginning to gear up for the modern age that we now know, involving not just mega-bucks sponsorships and tv deals but also Stock Market flotations of clubs and the like. United led the UK charge on all of these things. And that's when the Marketing Johnnies started taking over our great game. It isn't unfair, I believe, to state that this was the time when the Munich air disaster was slowly turned into a marketing tool by these people, becoming part of the legend of the club alone, when it became all about United and nothing and no-one else.

And as usual when people at a distance from the thing get their greedy marketing mitts on something like this, they messed it up, culminating in the farce that was the 1998 testimonial on behalf of those who had lost their lives 40 years before. The obscene amount of money paid to secure Eric Cantona's involvement in that game when, yet again, ordinary people were asked to dip their hands in their pockets, was grossly insulting. 'Munich' has become, in the hands of these people, part of the 'branding' to be exploited, that is quite clear..

However, none of United's actions/behaviours justifies anyone chanting vile obscenities regarding the Munich air disaster. When I hear our fellow Blues use this awful event to poke fun at our Red rivals, I despair at their stupidity and crass insensitivity. Like other Blues on here today, I've noticed that it has reduced over recent years (largely, I think, because of the outstanding behaviour of Blues at the 2008 50th commemoration at the OId Trafford derby). I hope it will disappear completely. And when Munich is commemorated in the future, I also hope it will be the city's loss at the heart of it.
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Really enjoyed reading this, it's so well written, and I agree with the other comment that it would be good if not only our fans took time to read it but fans of other clubs do also.
 
RIP to ALL who perished. Awful. Unimaginable

Never been comfortable with the way the club have kind of milked it over the years. The testimonial match, sponsored by AIG. The way ‘eric the king’ Charged more to appear than the beneficiaries received, the way the survivors and widows were quickly turfed out of the club houses.
Theres a lot united, as a club, shouldnt be too proud of in the way they have behaved. The victims deserved so much better.

like liverpool they almost glory in it, where as a lot of clubs who have suffered disasters, bradfors, bolton, rangers, torino, remember with a lot of dignity

sorry if that all sounded out of line. It really isnt meant to and i respect those that perished as much as the next man
 
johnevans said:
Well said..

One of my earliest memories is being hoiked up onto The Old Man's shoulders to see United's 1958 Cup Final team being greeted at the Town Hall in Albert Square. To give him a rest, our neighbour from Hulme (who was a season ticket holder at Old Trafford along with his wife, both of them watching United home and away for many years) also let me sit on his shoulders to see above the crowd. My aunts and uncles were there too, all Blues mixing with their Red friends to honour the team that had defied the odds after that dreadful air disaster.

Because it was the city's disaster as much as anything else. We shouted for Matt Busby because he had been a Blue in the great City side of but 20 years before, along with Frank Swift who had died in the crash. Nearer to home, my mother had been a babysitter as a young woman to Albert Scanlon, who survived the crash. She would have been devastated if he'd been one of those who lost their lives that day.

Growing up in the 60s, the disaster only came back into our consciousness as kids when on February 6th notices would appear in the Manchester Evening News' 'In Memoriam' column. There would always be something from Duncan Edwards' family, together with Roger Byrne's, David Pegg's and Tommy Taylor's families. I recall as a student on the 15th anniversary in 1973 posting a newspaper clipping which had the complete poem 'Flowers Of Manchester' on a university noticeboard. Nobody touched it or desecrated it. Because it was the city's tragedy.

Sadly, United haven't covered themselves with glory in dealing with the tragedy. In the 60s, the treatment of the players and other staff was frankly appalling (forcing players and their families out of club houses, minimal financial support, not even a whiff of a testimonial to generate funds to support those affected and so on and so on). The initial 'strategy' always seemed to be 'benign ignorance' and not to allow themselves to be opened up to legal challenges.. if we don't mention it, it and everyone will go away.. and our supine press/media was complicit in this, never highlighting what was going on, hardly ever mentioning the Munich disaster until February 6th loomed again..

I spoke with Albert Scanlon on a few occasions in the 70s when I was a student and would occasionally meet my parents in town of a Saturday night for a drink with them at Sinclair's Oyster Bar when they would often bump into Albert. He was clearly very upset about the way he and others had been treated by United post-Munich. On the other hand, they had put up a clock at Old Trafford, so that was that, then..

Fast forward to the early 90s. Time had passed, fans from various clubs including our own had long begun the dreadful chanting that referenced the Munich air disaster and football was beginning to gear up for the modern age that we now know, involving not just mega-bucks sponsorships and tv deals but also Stock Market flotations of clubs and the like. United led the UK charge on all of these things. And that's when the Marketing Johnnies started taking over our great game. It isn't unfair, I believe, to state that this was the time when the Munich air disaster was slowly turned into a marketing tool by these people, becoming part of the legend of the club alone, when it became all about United and nothing and no-one else.

And as usual when people at a distance from the thing get their greedy marketing mitts on something like this, they messed it up, culminating in the farce that was the 1998 testimonial on behalf of those who had lost their lives 40 years before. The obscene amount of money paid to secure Eric Cantona's involvement in that game when, yet again, ordinary people were asked to dip their hands in their pockets, was grossly insulting. 'Munich' has become, in the hands of these people, part of the 'branding' to be exploited, that is quite clear..

However, none of United's actions/behaviours justifies anyone chanting vile obscenities regarding the Munich air disaster. When I hear our fellow Blues use this awful event to poke fun at our Red rivals, I despair at their stupidity and crass insensitivity. Like other Blues on here today, I've noticed that it has reduced over recent years (largely, I think, because of the outstanding behaviour of Blues at the 2008 50th commemoration at the OId Trafford derby). I hope it will disappear completely. And when Munich is commemorated in the future, I also hope it will be the city's loss at the heart of it.
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An excellent piece John. You remind me of the bloke that sits next to me at the Etihad!
 
johnevans said:
Well said..

One of my earliest memories is being hoiked up onto The Old Man's shoulders to see United's 1958 Cup Final team being greeted at the Town Hall in Albert Square. To give him a rest, our neighbour from Hulme (who was a season ticket holder at Old Trafford along with his wife, both of them watching United home and away for many years) also let me sit on his shoulders to see above the crowd. My aunts and uncles were there too, all Blues mixing with their Red friends to honour the team that had defied the odds after that dreadful air disaster.

Because it was the city's disaster as much as anything else. We shouted for Matt Busby because he had been a Blue in the great City side of but 20 years before, along with Frank Swift who had died in the crash. Nearer to home, my mother had been a babysitter as a young woman to Albert Scanlon, who survived the crash. She would have been devastated if he'd been one of those who lost their lives that day.

Growing up in the 60s, the disaster only came back into our consciousness as kids when on February 6th notices would appear in the Manchester Evening News' 'In Memoriam' column. There would always be something from Duncan Edwards' family, together with Roger Byrne's, David Pegg's and Tommy Taylor's families. I recall as a student on the 15th anniversary in 1973 posting a newspaper clipping which had the complete poem 'Flowers Of Manchester' on a university noticeboard. Nobody touched it or desecrated it. Because it was the city's tragedy.

Sadly, United haven't covered themselves with glory in dealing with the tragedy. In the 60s, the treatment of the players and other staff was frankly appalling (forcing players and their families out of club houses, minimal financial support, not even a whiff of a testimonial to generate funds to support those affected and so on and so on). The initial 'strategy' always seemed to be 'benign ignorance' and not to allow themselves to be opened up to legal challenges.. if we don't mention it, it and everyone will go away.. and our supine press/media was complicit in this, never highlighting what was going on, hardly ever mentioning the Munich disaster until February 6th loomed again..

I spoke with Albert Scanlon on a few occasions in the 70s when I was a student and would occasionally meet my parents in town of a Saturday night for a drink with them at Sinclair's Oyster Bar when they would often bump into Albert. He was clearly very upset about the way he and others had been treated by United post-Munich. On the other hand, they had put up a clock at Old Trafford, so that was that, then..

Fast forward to the early 90s. Time had passed, fans from various clubs including our own had long begun the dreadful chanting that referenced the Munich air disaster and football was beginning to gear up for the modern age that we now know, involving not just mega-bucks sponsorships and tv deals but also Stock Market flotations of clubs and the like. United led the UK charge on all of these things. And that's when the Marketing Johnnies started taking over our great game. It isn't unfair, I believe, to state that this was the time when the Munich air disaster was slowly turned into a marketing tool by these people, becoming part of the legend of the club alone, when it became all about United and nothing and no-one else.

And as usual when people at a distance from the thing get their greedy marketing mitts on something like this, they messed it up, culminating in the farce that was the 1998 testimonial on behalf of those who had lost their lives 40 years before. The obscene amount of money paid to secure Eric Cantona's involvement in that game when, yet again, ordinary people were asked to dip their hands in their pockets, was grossly insulting. 'Munich' has become, in the hands of these people, part of the 'branding' to be exploited, that is quite clear..

However, none of United's actions/behaviours justifies anyone chanting vile obscenities regarding the Munich air disaster. When I hear our fellow Blues use this awful event to poke fun at our Red rivals, I despair at their stupidity and crass insensitivity. Like other Blues on here today, I've noticed that it has reduced over recent years (largely, I think, because of the outstanding behaviour of Blues at the 2008 50th commemoration at the OId Trafford derby). I hope it will disappear completely. And when Munich is commemorated in the future, I also hope it will be the city's loss at the heart of it.
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Great post!

DMw0oavXcAA7gRW.jpg

Frank Swift is true a City legend. Played for City for 16 years, the longest serving City player ever (although didn’t play the most games). Was England’s War Time and post-War #1 while at City (at times while City were in Div2), and was part of the 1934 FA Cup and 1937 League title winning sides.

I raise this every year, but Frank Swift’s family live in Manchester and are City fans. I always wonder when a Munich chant has ever started somewhere (and you do still hear them from time-to-time in pubs at away games, often started by younger lads), “what if Frank Swift’s family were in here?!”

Even Matt Busby played in midfield for City for eight years and over 200 games, part of those FA Cup and League title winning sides.

As you say, United acted very poorly towards survivors and widowed families; I actually remember hearing that United paid Cantona out of the money raised for the Munich Memorial fund for that Memorial game; and commercialising their memorial poster with a sponsor:
cebeb1d8944aac90876c17689bb3c763bc97befc.jpg

And to be honest these things shouldn’t be forgotten about, especially if it is commercialised further.

But they also shouldn’t be reasons people bring up the name “Munichs” or sing about the tragedy or do airplane gestures to take the piss out of United fans because they’re taking the piss out of the memory and family of Frank Swift n’all.

Thankfully all these things are declining.
 
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1984 in school sat next to a Liverpool supporting lad that had a full repertoire of Munich songs that he spent teaching City supporting me. 14 year old me thought they were funny as fook.

Fast forward a number of decades and I find them distasteful...and the lad is now a fucking Rag with a deep undying love for King Eric.

as Morpheus said "Time it seems as a sense of irony"
 
An excellent article which really is an accurate reconstruction of the attitudes and feelings of those desperately dark days. I was at school in the mid- and late fifties, but I remember vividly the pride felt by Mancunians when both the Cup and League were brought home to the city by City and United in 1956. There was, it seems, a civic pride which transcended local rivalries and, indeed, united the two. The tragedy of Munich was, therefore, far more than uniquely a football disaster. There were personal connections and links everywhere; my uncle (a lifelong city fan) knew the Colemans well, my mother worked with Matt Busby's daughter (Sheena?) at Kendalls and all over the city and conurbation people had a very personal involvement beyond the sympathy which such a dreadful event arouses. The loss of "Big Swiftie" was obviously one I felt, though not as much as my dad and uncles did. I was also upset greatly by the death of Henry Rose, because he had been just about the only journalist to take City to beat Birmingham in the 1956 final. Such are the feelings of schoolboys!

I remember going to the Birmingham match, the rain, the pitch under at least 2 inches of water and Birmingham taking the lead when a back pass just stopped on the surface of the lake and a Brummie simple lobbed the advancing "Trautie". I don't remember our equaliser, but I remember well the rendition of Abide with me though I never knew, until today, the name of the soloist. Thank you for letting us know, Gary. We took two United supporters to that match and I remember when United played in the cup one of them brought the programme - it was their first match after the crash - round to our house. One of the most poignant memories was the page for the United team - all blank spaces filled in in juvenile writing and him saying, pathetically, "they're all dead". Something I shall never forget.
 
talkativesprout said:
1984 in school sat next to a Liverpool supporting lad that had a full repertoire of Munich songs that he spent teaching City supporting me. 14 year old me thought they were funny as fook.

Fast forward a number of decades and I find them distasteful...and the lad is now a fucking Rag with a deep undying love for King Eric.

as Morpheus said "Time it seems as a sense of irony"
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I know one lad I went to school with in the 70s and 80s, a full-on “die hard” Liverpool fan , he used to get battered at least once per each half term off Utd or City lads as he couldn’t stop taking the piss.

We left school in the late 80s and I didn’t see him for donkey’s years. I bumped into him just after the takeover in the Trafford centre and to my surprise he was decked out in a lovely new united shirt. He even called me a “plastic” on account of the takeover. Being a grown up these days I resisted the urge to leather him (doubt I could have anyway, he was a big unit), and settled for laughing at him “see you’re still a knobhead Mitch”.

He’s probably a blue nowadays. So Mitch, if you’re on here, you’re a dickhead mate.
 
I had one personal contact with the Munich Air Crash.

A few years after we go a new part-time PE teacher at school: Ray Wood.

He had been United's number one goalkeeper through their League Championship wins in 1955-56 and 1956-57. When Harry Gregg arrived in a world record fee for a goalkeeper in December 1957, Wood found his first team opportunities limited. He was on the flight back from the match against Red Star Belgrade which crashed at Munich.

Wood suffered minor injuries but was soon sold to Second Division Hudderfield where he stayed for seven seasons. Back then many players even those in the top two divisions often had 'day jobs'. City goalkeeper Harry Dowd worked as a plumber as did Preston legend Tom Finney. Ray Wood worked as a PE teacher at our school alongside Stockport County's Trevor Porteous.
 
Kazzydeyna said:
R.I.P to all who perished.

My dad was as passionate a blue as you could ever meet, he lived and breathed City all his life. Didn’t stop him getting emotional whenever the subject of Munich came up. He described it as like the entire city being hit by a sledgehammer. I think that’s why he could never bring himself to hate United. He didn’t see the ugly behemoth we see today , he only ever saw a collection of bright young lives snuffed out all too early.

One of the very few times he ever really bollocked me was for calling them “Munichs” when I was a teenager. It disgusted him. As I’ve grown it disgusts me as well.

I don’t give a shite who they played for, or how the club treated their families afterwards, today is a day for remembering a collection of lives, young and older, that were taken far too soon, in a Very traumatic devastating manner.

God bless them all, and their families.
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Thanks for posting this, you've put into words better than I would be able to what was really lost that day. My dad was a friend of Billy Whelan and used to watch United one week, City the next and like you I remember him absolutely taking me to task when I was too young and dumb to understand what an idiot I was for singing the runway song.
 
Gary James said:
So much has been written about Munich that it’s easy to get lost and confused by its actual significance to us all. I’ve posted this lengthy piece recalling what it meant to Manchester in 1958 and the years since, paying quite a bit of attention to MCFC of course: https://gjfootballarchive.com/2021/02/05/the-munich-air-disaster-a-long-read/

I’ve seen a lot of wild exaggerations and myths but hopefully the facts in that piece and the memories of Steve Fleet and others will be of interest. Thanks
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That's a fine article, so well researched and written. Many thanks. Takes me back to when Manchester folk had a stronger & closer sense of local identity than in today's globalized world. Although i'd been a City supporter for a few years by then I thought and still think Duncan Edwards was the best English player i've seen. Munich affected me greatly, remember hearing about the United fan who went to the first game after the crash, against Sheff. Wednesday, wearing a scarf with the players' names sewn into it and a small black cross next to those who had died. When they scored direct from a corner she said "perhaps one of them gave it a push." Then staying up late to listen on the wireless to their Cup game v. West Brom when Colin Webtser (?) scored a late winner. And from reports of the crash itself it touched me hearing that Billy Whelan, a devout Catholic, called out at the last minute "If this is death I am ready for it." R.I.P. always to the Busby Babes.
 
Very sad event at the time it happened which they dealt with in a shocking manner afterwards. It only became an annual event when their commercial department realised they could milk it for all it was worth. A complete bunch of hypocrites!
 
Truth be told I sang the song as many of us did.. were we bad individuals then, and good individuals now because we dont sing it any more ? you can not say boo to a goose now..hate this woke culture.. I would guess that many of these morally correct individuals say different things to their mates down the pub than they ever dare post online. In ten years we will all be singing Agadoo or other such tripe.
 
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