NATO

[AlgarveBlu]

Thank you for your considered reply.

Why has nobody though considered the corporate interests that drive arms sales and need NATO as a buyer of first resort. The more countries that join NATO the more sales opportunities arise and that is to the detriment of all the countries who depend on US weapons. It has all but destroyed the UKs capacity to build aircraft for instance. Every country now relies on US built aircraft, which means they make profits and we lose jobs and manufacturing knowledge.

It may not be Imperialism but it is colonisation by stealth. We have US bases on UK land because we can no longer defend ourselves and that I believe is because of NATO and its promises.

The thread itself was not aimed at the conflict in Ukraine, although I did mention it and now regret it as it has I included it in the OP, ot was meant to be more about NATO and the influence it has on countries like ours.

One of the questions I asked was

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power or does it make you sleep easier at night?

I worded that badly, it should have read

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power and are you happy with that because you can sleep easier at night? It is a question designed to ask how far people will accept capitalist ideals not a question that in anyway was about the war in the Ukraine.

I suspected your question was more of a political ideological one with NATO as an added bolt on. You could by extension have asked the same question with a comparison with the Warsaw Pact that faced off against NATO for decades.

Was the Warsaw Pact led by the USSR an extension of communist power? Yes, it was, it was a defacto client of the Russian munitions industry with them also being one of the largest exporters of munitions to third world countries.

I’ll stop now as I see Mr Kobayashi has beaten me to it…Bastard!

 

[Corky]

Thank you for your considered reply.

Why has nobody though considered the corporate interests that drive arms sales and need NATO as a buyer of first resort. The more countries that join NATO the more sales opportunities arise and that is to the detriment of all the countries who depend on US weapons. It has all but destroyed the UKs capacity to build aircraft for instance. Every country now relies on US built aircraft, which means they make profits and we lose jobs and manufacturing knowledge.

It may not be Imperialism but it is colonisation by stealth. We have US bases on UK land because we can no longer defend ourselves and that I believe is because of NATO and its promises.

The thread itself was not aimed at the conflict in Ukraine, although I did mention it and now regret it as it has I included it in the OP, ot was meant to be more about NATO and the influence it has on countries like ours.

One of the questions I asked was

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power or does it make you sleep easier at night?

I worded that badly, it should have read

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power and are you happy with that because you can sleep easier at night? It is a question designed to ask how far people will accept capitalist ideals not a question that in anyway was about the war in the Ukraine.

It hasn't stopped BAe exporting weapons, services and knowledge. Capitalism is favourable to Russian serfdom, pogroms, and mass starvations that they excel at, or a corrupt failed version of communism forced on its people. There are a lot of people who accept all the trappings of capitalism but are ideologically against it, and like have comfort, feredom and personal choice, and more than one type of each product to buy.

 

[Blue_Lightsaber]

Or NATO can back off and engage in peace talks and the world can get trade back to some working degree.

Not gonna happen for 2 main reasons and many small others.

1. You think Putin won't expand into NATO next? If you honestly believe that I have a bridge to sell you!

Medvedev floats idea of pushing back Poland's borders

Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday that the only way for Moscow to ensure a lasting peace with Ukraine was to push back the borders of hostile states as far as possible, even if that meant the frontiers of NATO member Poland.

www.reuters.com

2. And with the rise of global trade causing middle class becoming the FORMER MIDDLE CLASS and actually the WORKING POOR.. the global trade that you want to get back to -- was favoring only China and Russia and our billionaires.

Look around what do you see? Domestic Manufacturing gone! That's given rise to ultra nationalism everywhere..

When Putin crossed into Ukraine it was pretty much crossing the Rubicon.

The world is not going back..

We're back to geo-politics and alliances.

We don't want to depend on trade from Russia and China (in effect paying tribute to our enemies who want to kill us).

We want to be self sufficient if not as a country, then as an alliance! And that's why NATO will be popular.

 

[Bigga]

Not gonna happen for 2 main reasons and many small others.

1. You think Putin won't expand into NATO next? If you honestly believe that I have a bridge to sell you!

Medvedev floats idea of pushing back Poland's borders

Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday that the only way for Moscow to ensure a lasting peace with Ukraine was to push back the borders of hostile states as far as possible, even if that meant the frontiers of NATO member Poland.

www.reuters.com

2. And with the rise of global trade causing middle class becoming the FORMER MIDDLE CLASS and actually the WORKING POOR.. the global trade that you want to get back to -- was favoring only China and Russia and our billionaires.

Look around what do you see? Domestic Manufacturing gone! That's given rise to ultra nationalism everywhere..

When Putin crossed into Ukraine it was pretty much crossing the Rubicon.

The world is not going back..

We're back to geo-politics and alliances.

We don't want to depend on trade from Russia and China (in effect paying tribute to our enemies who want to kill us).

We want to be self sufficient if not as a country, then as an alliance! And that's why NATO will be popular.

Won't bob in today (and you saddos can curse me all you like) except to say this:

A) Medvedev speaks for Medvedev. If Biden can say a whole heap of shit on TV and blatantly deny he said it and media not question it, I'll not be taking on board what some Russian lackey says and the media pushing your panic buttons.

B) China did not walk into the West and steal jobs. Your argument is with the wrong people.
You need to focus on why billionaires chose profit (which is lauded by many a hypocrite on BM that have personal investments in those companies whilst the rest of us suffer with high costings) over working class people on which I've had MANY an argument on BM about.

I wouldn't worry about trading with Russia as it seems, no not seems, it IS already creating new trades with other countries determined to make the US petrodollar system a thing of the past (you should see the beginning workings of BRICS for your trouble and see what the foundations are doing as other nations seek to apply too). Those main countries already control 60%-70% of the oil? Look at the US trying to placate the Saudis ignoring the 'pariah' accusations in order to kowtow for oil, all the while virtually high fiving Russia!

When the West were implored to invest in renewables by 'loony lefties', the billionaires laughed it off and carried on playing stupid oil and trade games and we got the stupid prizes. Look at how we live here with premium prices, cos there's gotta be sucker in trade somewhere, so that others get an easier deal.

You can blame it ALL on Russia, how we're suffering or you can look at the opportunists to see who benefits for what reason to keep this pushing along.

You're perfect evidence of compartmentalising things in different spaces instead of seeing things as a jigsaw.

Enjoy the thread.

 

[Rascal]

I suspected your question was more of a political ideological one with NATO as an added bolt on. You could by extension have asked the same question with a comparison with the Warsaw Pact that faced off against NATO for decades.

Was the Warsaw Pact led by the USSR an extension of communist power? Yes, it was, it was a defacto client of the Russian munitions industry with them also being one of the largest exporters of munitions to third world countries.

I’ll stop now as I see Mr Kobayashi has beaten me to it…Bastard!

I could have asked that of course. But we live in a country that is a NATO member, hence the question being Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power and are you happy with that because you can sleep easier at night?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Or NATO can back off and engage in peace talks and the world can get trade back to some working degree.

NATO back off , back off from what exactly?? They haven't invaded anyone?

Democratic Countries have chosen to join NATO which is their right is it not?

The only way peace will occur is if Russia backs off and then Ukraine can then decide whether it wants to engage in peace talks with a country that has invaded it, killed thousands of its people and caused billions of pounds of damage.

 

[BobKowalski]

And yet a NATO 'ally' got involved to talk Ukraine out of peace talks, last year. I've already answered this.

You can't have it both ways if that's your view above.

They didn’t. Again, no NATO country can talk Ukraine out of peace talks. If Ukraine wanted to sit down and talk peace with Russia there is fuck all anyone in the West can do about it.

You have totally ’Westernised’ the Ukraine conflict. You have relegated Ukraine and Ukrainians to the role of ‘helpless pawns’ with no agency in this conflict. This is ‘colonial’ thinking, and mirrors what Putin and Russian apologists say about Ukraine.

Your contempt for the Ukrainians and their struggling is unedifying.

 

[BobKowalski]

I could have asked that of course. But we live in a country that is a NATO member, hence the question being Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power and are you happy with that because you can sleep easier at night?

No. NATO is a voluntary defence pact.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

They didn’t. Again, no NATO country can talk Ukraine out of peace talks. If Ukraine wanted to sit down and talk peace with Russia there is fuck all anyone in the West can do about it.

You have totally ’Westernised’ the Ukraine conflict. You have relegated Ukraine and Ukrainians to the role of ‘helpless pawns’ with no agency in this conflict. This is ‘colonial’ thinking, and mirrors what Putin and Russian apologists say about Ukraine.

Your contempt for the Ukrainians and their struggling is unedifying.

Boom.

 

[inbetween]

Thank you for your considered reply.

Why has nobody though considered the corporate interests that drive arms sales and need NATO as a buyer of first resort. The more countries that join NATO the more sales opportunities arise and that is to the detriment of all the countries who depend on US weapons. It has all but destroyed the UKs capacity to build aircraft for instance. Every country now relies on US built aircraft, which means they make profits and we lose jobs and manufacturing knowledge.

It may not be Imperialism but it is colonisation by stealth. We have US bases on UK land because we can no longer defend ourselves and that I believe is because of NATO and its promises.

The thread itself was not aimed at the conflict in Ukraine, although I did mention it and now regret it as it has I included it in the OP, ot was meant to be more about NATO and the influence it has on countries like ours.

One of the questions I asked was

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power or does it make you sleep easier at night?

I worded that badly, it should have read

Is NATO basically an extension of capitalist power and are you happy with that because you can sleep easier at night? It is a question designed to ask how far people will accept capitalist ideals not a question that in anyway was about the war in the Ukraine.

I don't really understand how an economic system has anything to do with a military body? The NATO purpose isn't to spread capitalism, if it was then why is a country like Portugal a NATO member given it values socialist ideals? Would you really consider Portugal as a US colony?

Now vs NATO, a stronger argument could be made around Chinese imperialism and colonialism because Chinese influence is dominated by economic strength as opposed to military strength. Compared to us the Chinese are literally defined by their economic system and China isn't even a democracy to enable its own people to choose let alone others.

I guess as a socialist you're not bothered by that though? Would you be bothered if China sliced apart the UK and made it into a communist colony? I doubt it because bring on the hammer and the fist as long as he's a socialist....

The difference with NATO is countries have a choice and even then that choice is limited purely to what NATO military capability can do for the goals of that country. NATO enables the people of a country like Romania to make a choice to join the EU for example without fear of consequences due to the threat of Russian aggression.

In this example the fact I know you disagree with the EU's own goals is the problem in your argument because that still has nothing to do with NATO.