Esteban de la Sexface said:I switched the telly off yesterday, when he brought on Vieira instead of Ireland...
switched it on again 30 seconds later mind.
Didsbury Dave said:Soulboy said:I believe Mancini is doing an incredible job.
Mate, you lost it at this point for me.
By no stetch of anyone's imaginations, doubtless, including his own, is he doing an "incredible" job.
He's doing OK at best. The team are still underperforming regularly, he doesn't seem to know what his best team or system is and there appears to be unrest in the camp.
There are extenuating circumstances - he's new to this country for example - and some things are OK - we've found our best back four and look more solid.
However I don't think we've dominated a single game from start to finish since he arrived.
I can agree that he's not had long and he may get it right. But to laud him as some sort of genius is, well, incredible to me.
BillyShears said:Soulboy said:I remember last season frequently stating that Hughes wasn't up to the job... you absolutely pilloried me for that view!
Then you broke the story that Ireland had fallen out with Hughes... and you completely changed your opinion and called for the manager's head!
How can I debate with someone who clearly has such a personal agenda about one of the players, and whose support for the manager is based upon whether or not he picks Stevie Ireland!
If you look at our points total over Hughes final dozen games you will see it was nigh-on relegation form. I can't be bothered checking it out.
If in twelve months time, and another £100m spent, we are still as "boring" I might be sympathetic to the view that we may need a change of manager; but as things stand at the moment I believe Mancini is doing an incredible job.
We are favourites to finish 4th. in spite of all the doom and gloom on here. You'd seriously think we were in 8th. place to read some of the comments on here.
If you want entertainment, go to the circus.
So once again, please show me where I've said I want Mancini sacked, either now or at the end of the season? Also, please point out where it is that I've said that I want to be entertained?
I'll save you the trouble, you won't be able to find those things as I've never said them...
Do you really find it that hard to discuss the points I've raised?
All I want to know is why we struggle to impose ourselves in the first 45 minutes of matches. That's where this thread started...is it the manager, the players, or a combination of the two?
Didsbury Dave said:Soulboy, I've never said I don't fancy Mancini as manager. Like with all of our managers and players I evaluate them on a week by week basis. That's what the forum's for. As I said in my post, he's done some good things and some bad things.
Maybe I should hold fire with my opinions? Don't patronise me please.
This is a forum for opinions.
"Incredible" PMSL
Didsbury Dave said:Some decent positive thinking there m27.
However, look at it another way.
I've got no stats to back this up but since Mancini's come, every time we have gone a goal behind and have pushed to try to win a game/get back on top, we have started to quickly dominate.
That's because attacking is what we do best.
Now we've got a settled back 4 we don't need to be going into games like yesterday's defending on the edge of our own box. We had no outlet except the long ball to Tevez which came straight back at us.
We should have started the game like we played in the second half. There have been countless other games where this has happened.
Didsbury Dave said:Some decent positive thinking there m27.
However, look at it another way.
I've got no stats to back this up but since Mancini's come, every time we have gone a goal behind and have pushed to try to win a game/get back on top, we have started to quickly dominate.
That's because attacking is what we do best.
Now we've got a settled back 4 we don't need to be going into games like yesterday's defending on the edge of our own box. We had no outlet except the long ball to Tevez which came straight back at us.
We should have started the game like we played in the second half. There have been countless other games where this has happened.
Didsbury Dave said:We had no outlet except the long ball to Tevez which came straight back at us.
We should have started the game like we played in the second half. There have been countless other games where this has happened.
Soulboy said:Maybe the fact that managers are "evaluated" on a week by week basis is one of the problems at City! All that means is that after every defeat (and to be honest we don't have too many of them!) the managers, the players, everyone.. they all get incredible grief as if it's the end of the world.
moomba said:Do we have the players to sustain that for 90 minutes and still be solid at the back when the opposition got the chances that any side will get over a full match.
[/quote]This approach is probably one of the reasons why we changed the manager at Christmas. 3-3's may be good for the neutrals, but they don't get you top 4 positions.
Didsbury Dave said:Of course we do. We've got the strongest attack in the premier league, squad-wise. And if we're 3-0 up it isn't the end of the world to concede a goal, is it?
So a 1-1 is better than a 3-3, is it?
I thought RSC was fine yesterday. Did his job very well imo. The problem with Barry is just as much to do with the players around him. SWP, Bellamy, De Jong and Zabaleta are all good players, but they are all technically lacking, so when playing on a poor pitch, it's difficult for anybody to impose themselves.cleavers said:Interesting discussion about not imposing ourselves on other teams, especially first half.
While we persist with Barry in midfield I don't think we'll ever impose ourselves on anyone for any length of time. After a promising start at City, he's flattered to deceive, he does cover a lot of ground, can't fault him there, but I can't work out what his job is. Is he supposed to be a defensive midfielder, the link man between defence and attack, a box to box player, or an attack minded midfielder ? For me he just gives the ball away to often, and his control isn't what it should be. Ironically he seems to play much better for England. He should be the player that helps us impose ourselves on teams, but he's not, and I don't think either of his City managers have worked out how or where to play him to get the best out of him.
Billy a question, which Stoke game are you referring to in particular ? The home cup game ? I thought we did dominate for the first 15-20 minutes, then lost our way. The away cup game ? I didn't go, but from what I could work out from the reports and commentary, we were the better team by quite a distance until Adebayor got sent off. The away league game, I agree we were poor all round.
Yesterday I would put down to the players, and in a number of games this year I'd say the same (under both managers). The players sometimes seem to turn up thinking they've won already, yesterday was a case in point, we started like we were 2-0 up, cruising, and when Sunderland had the cheek to chase every lost cause, a number of ours seemed to want to hide.
Richards a couple of times just kicked the ball anywhere because he didn't fancy the pressure he was being put under. Lescott for 15-20 minutes was hopeless, Kompany wasn't much better, Bridge was poor, and was replaced. Our defence (one of the good points under Mancini) probably had its worst 20 minutes of the season, and we were lucky we weren't further behind by the time they got their act together.
Midfield was also very poor, Barry just doesn't cut it for me. De Jong was winning tackles, but then giving the ball away cheaply, and Zabaleta is a right back out of position.
Up front SWP was woeful not for the first time, and while Bellamy was trying, he's just not on form at the moment. Tevez worked very hard, but he can't do it alone.
I don't think anyone can criticise Mancini for his starting team yesterday, after all it was pretty well the side that put 4 past Chelsea, but, and I said it on the day, we only really played in that game for 25 minutes, and for a lot of the game we were poor.
My conclusion is its the players we have, they don't and won't ever make a team, and both managers have struggled to impose themselves on the players . We all sit there and look at this squad, the best we have ever had, and we rightly expect better from it, but its a country mile away from a team.
If Mancini stays, and I think he will, then he's going to need to ship out a number of players.
I'd keep
Given, Kompany, Lescott, Tevez, Bellamy, De Jong, Adabayor, and Johnson for first team regulars, though getting Adebayor and Tevez to work is a puzzle that may be beyond any manager.
I'd keep Vieira, Zabaleta, Ireland, and Onouha, as back up, and hope that the two we've brought through can improve.
I'd bring back Hart, Weiss, and Robinho to compete for first team.
I'd dump Taylor, Silvinho, Toure, Santa Cruz, Barry, Petrov, Richards, Garrido, and Bridge.
That's a huge clear out, and its going to cost a fortune to rebuild the squad, but for me there are too many in that list that just don't cut it, and no manager will find it easy.
moomba said:Doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Think back to the run of matches last season where our attacking play wasn't good enough to compensate for our inability to keep the opposition from scoring.
So a 1-1 is better than a 3-3, is it?
No, it's not worse either. And I strongly believe a team that can't defend won't get results. So I'd much, much prefer to see a 1-1 scoreline.
ono said:I thought RSC was fine yesterday. Did his job very well imo.
BillyShears said:...or just the curse of City.
When you look at the number of times this season we've dropped points, and the number of points we have dropped, in games which we should/could/nearly have won, it ain't half frustrating.
The one thing I will say, is I'm tired of the team setting out to defend from minute one. Our Bobby seems to have learned nothing from our recent adventures against Stoke and Chelsea. We need to go out and dominate games, rather than taking this passive, cautious approach, which just seems to invite the opposition onto us...
The responsibility must also lie with the players as well. Bellamy, Tevez, RSC, and SWP were all far too greedy today in the final third of the park. Players of that experience, and that quality, should have much better decision making in pressure situations. It's just a small example, but after we equalized we went up the park, RSC picked up the ball outside the area, and could and more importantly, should have played Johnson in instead of just putting his laces through the ball...
Anyway, its still a point gained, so I'm not too disheartened. Frustrated as fuck though...
ono said:It's unfair to judge at the minute as the midfield aren't good enough.
We can't keep possession when pressed as none of the 3 midfielders are technically sound enough to keep the ball under pressure. We don't seem to advance upfield as a unit.
I'm surprised teams don't press us more at Coms.
The key to winning most away game is keeping the ball, quitening the crowd and forcing the opposition to defend deeper. At the minute we have nobody to boss the game in the middle. Until we do, we will be patchy away from home.
I think he'll look at 2 central midfielders in the summer. One who is great on the ball and has good attacking abilities. The other will be a box to box type, and i think both will be used to compliment Barry.
De Jong is a problem. Not because i don't rate him. Purely because he limits us in some games as an anchorman isn't always required. We'd do much better if we just kept the ball and to do that we need 3 central players who are comfortable doing so. Zabaleta and De Jong aren't. If we play with De Jong then the players ahead of him need to be great on the ball.
So i think after he's been allowed to spend would be the best time to judge him. I'd imagine we'll be looking at a 'Hleb' type of player and somebody similar to Yaya Toure.