Nelson Mandela RIP

[mcmanus]

There you go. Thanks BigJim. Your penultimate sentence makes my point for me. I must be racist.

As sure as eggs are eggs when I saw you were the last poster, just like johnsononthleft, I know you'd hate Mandela.

Think about it.

Maybe you should read people's posts first and then reach a conclusion mcmanus.

Think about that.

I have thought about it and come to the conclusion it was you who voted me biggest kunt on the forum.

Just one vote but as it comes from you I'll take it as a badge of honour

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Why did the City squad have to pay money to sit in a room with him?

Is it because they support terrorism?

or maybe the state pension isn't enough for him to live on, one of the two, or something else we have no knowledge of.

Why do you think STG?

 

[CITYBOY1000]

Yes, all regimes are by their very nature hierarchical, there are winners and losers, with all that lies inbetween.

SA is a new country, a new democracy, it will take a long time to eradicate all the bad stuff that comes, which is no reason to knock the people for overthrowing the inherantly Evil, racist, Apartheid system.

You seem more bothered about the overthrow of the whites than the struggle of the blacks to create a new country for all people, and lets face it, they need to learn how to be politicians etc.. seeing as how they weren't allowed any part of the power of government before.

There you go. Thanks BigJim. Your penultimate sentence makes my point for me. I must be racist.

Not my words mate, do you consider you might have some views which could be construed that way?

I think you may be a complicated person, and you may disagree with my views and still we might both be wrong - but tell me why what I said is unreasonable regarding the new state.

When did I say your views on the new state were unreasonable ?

You and mcmanus need to climb down from your PC bandwagon and read people's posts in more detail.

It is quite clear your penultimate sentence is saying I have a problem with the overthrow of the white regime by the blacks. Where did I say that ?

Rather than address my points you, and the PC bandwagon, revert to the defaullt position that anyone who speaks out against Mandela longs for a return to Apartheid and must be racist. It's an intellectual weakness.

Nothing complicated about me. My points are clearly made.<br /><br />-- Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:29 pm --<br /><br />

As sure as eggs are eggs when I saw you were the last poster, just like johnsononthleft, I know you'd hate Mandela.

Think about it.

Maybe you should read people's posts first and then reach a conclusion mcmanus.

Think about that.

I have thought about it and come to the conclusion it was you who voted me biggest kunt on the forum.

Just one vote but as it comes from you I'll take it as a badge of honour

It wasn't me mcmanus.

I heard it was your mum.

 

[sir baconface]

While I consider myself right wing on many issues I detest any regime based on superiority, divisiveness and oppression. Apartheid was indefensible by all decent standards.

Unfortunately, breaking such a manacle was always going to take more than a pea shooter.

Even if you find that hard to accept, look at Mandela in later life: inclusive, warm, humble, compassionate and charismatic.

R.I.P.

Aren't all regimes based on divisiveness, oppression and ultimately inequality ?


I heard during Apartheid and after that the ANC was run along similar lines. You were either with them or against them. If you said the wrong thing, failed to turn up for mass meetings or did anything to catch the attention, you'd be accused by the local village big-mouth of being in league with the whites, or with the Zulus or being an informer and you'd have the life kicked out of you in public just bfore they stuck a necklace round your neck. I heard it could happen if you fell out with someone or shagged the wrong person's misses.

I admire Desmond Tutu more than Mandela. I remember him walking into an angry mob once and retrieving some poor, battered soul from an imminent death and driving him away. I never saw Mandela doing that.

I recall John Simpson on newsnight once asking Mandela to condemn some footage of a zulu being driven through an ANC area, being dragged out, battered and then it said, the crowd "set fire to him and casually walked away". Mandela refused to condemn it and even sought to justify it on the grounds that they were fighting a struggle against oppression.

I don't get sucked into all this hype from the PC brigade terrified of speaking out against a figure being lauded by the BBC and the world's press largely because he won a battle against white racism and was black. I suppose they are frightened that if they speak out people will call them the 'r' word.

No, not all regimes are based on divisiveness and oppression. Until we create the perfect society there will always be an element of inequality, with people at the bottom of the pile feeling disenfranchised. That's quite different from making supremacy a deliberate policy.

I can't recall ever being accused of being PC. On the contrary, one or two of the PC nazis on Blue Moon seriously piss me off. It's possible to admire Mandela for reasons other than not wanting to be called racist.

 

[mcmanus]

There you go. Thanks BigJim. Your penultimate sentence makes my point for me. I must be racist.

Not my words mate, do you consider you might have some views which could be construed that way?

I think you may be a complicated person, and you may disagree with my views and still we might both be wrong - but tell me why what I said is unreasonable regarding the new state.

When did I say your views on the new state were unreasonable ?

You and mcmanus need to climb down from your PC bandwagon and read people's posts in more detail.

It is quite clear your penultimate sentence is saying I have a problem with the overthrow of the white regime by the blacks. Where did I say that ?

Rather than address my points you, and the PC bandwagon, revert to the defaullt position that anyone who speaks out against Mandela longs for a return to Apartheid and must be racist. It's an intellectual weakness.

Nothing complicated about me. My points are clearly made.

-- Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:29 pm --

Maybe you should read people's posts first and then reach a conclusion mcmanus.

Think about that.

I have thought about it and come to the conclusion it was you who voted me biggest kunt on the forum.

Just one vote but as it comes from you I'll take it as a badge of honour

It wasn't me mcmanus.

I heard it was your mum.

You ever seen the scene in The Nutty Professed when Eddie Murphy is laughing his tits off sarcastically at the stand up

Fucking 'your mum' jokes, I haven't heard since school.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

There you go. Thanks BigJim. Your penultimate sentence makes my point for me. I must be racist.

Not my words mate, do you consider you might have some views which could be construed that way?

I think you may be a complicated person, and you may disagree with my views and still we might both be wrong - but tell me why what I said is unreasonable regarding the new state.

When did I say your views on the new state were unreasonable ?

You and mcmanus need to climb down from your PC bandwagon and read people's posts in more detail.

It is quite clear your penultimate sentence is saying I have a problem with the overthrow of the white regime by the blacks. Where did I say that ?

Rather than address my points you, and the PC bandwagon, revert to the defaullt position that anyone who speaks out against Mandela longs for a return to Apartheid and must be racist. It's an intellectual weakness.

Nothing complicated about me. My points are clearly made.

-- Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:29 pm --

Maybe you should read people's posts first and then reach a conclusion mcmanus.

Think about that.

I have thought about it and come to the conclusion it was you who voted me biggest kunt on the forum.

Just one vote but as it comes from you I'll take it as a badge of honour

It wasn't me mcmanus.

I heard it was your mum.

"I heard during Apartheid and after that the ANC was run along similar lines. You were either with them or against them. If you said the wrong thing, failed to turn up for mass meetings or did anything to catch the attention, you'd be accused by the local village big-mouth of being in league with the whites, or with the Zulus or being an informer and you'd have the life kicked out of you in public just bfore they stuck a necklace round your neck. I heard it could happen if you fell out with someone or shagged the wrong person's misses."

You said the above city boy - and I read it carefully, and I have read other posts from you in the past which show something of a pattern, but that's just impossible for me to ignore when your name pops up.

I repeat, I have read and digested fully your posts, and find them lacking in balance, feel free to do the same with mine.

You were inferring, nay stating, that the ANC and the previous Apartheid regime were as bad as each other - I would say if your hearsay was correct, and it could just be the propaganda and bluster of your un named sources, then you would have a point, except the one, major, game changing difference - that Racism had been eradicated from the state mechanism officially.

therefore, all things being equal, the overthrow of Apartheid was a positive, and a basis on which to progress the country into the future - the Apartheid regime was going nowhere and was doomed to failure.

I'm not interested in you as a person, you might be thick as two short planks for all I know, but when you post comment on a remembrance thread, especially denigrating the deceased, then I feel obliged to challenge it, in a polite and informed manner.

If you wish to hide behind accusations of being persecuted by the PC brigade, as if that's an organised group, then please leave me out of it, as I assure you I'm doing this all on my lonesome in my living room on my PC - but don't be surprised when others disagree with your views.

 

[CITYBOY1000]

Not my words mate, do you consider you might have some views which could be construed that way?

I think you may be a complicated person, and you may disagree with my views and still we might both be wrong - but tell me why what I said is unreasonable regarding the new state.

When did I say your views on the new state were unreasonable ?

You and mcmanus need to climb down from your PC bandwagon and read people's posts in more detail.

It is quite clear your penultimate sentence is saying I have a problem with the overthrow of the white regime by the blacks. Where did I say that ?

Rather than address my points you, and the PC bandwagon, revert to the defaullt position that anyone who speaks out against Mandela longs for a return to Apartheid and must be racist. It's an intellectual weakness.

Nothing complicated about me. My points are clearly made.

-- Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:29 pm --

I have thought about it and come to the conclusion it was you who voted me biggest kunt on the forum.

Just one vote but as it comes from you I'll take it as a badge of honour

It wasn't me mcmanus.

I heard it was your mum.

"I heard during Apartheid and after that the ANC was run along similar lines. You were either with them or against them. If you said the wrong thing, failed to turn up for mass meetings or did anything to catch the attention, you'd be accused by the local village big-mouth of being in league with the whites, or with the Zulus or being an informer and you'd have the life kicked out of you in public just bfore they stuck a necklace round your neck. I heard it could happen if you fell out with someone or shagged the wrong person's misses."

You said the above city boy - and I read it carefully, and I have read other posts from you in the past which show something of a pattern, but that's just impossible for me to ignore when your name pops up.

I repeat, I have read and digested fully your posts, and find them lacking in balance, feel free to do the same with mine.

You were inferring, nay stating, that the ANC and the previous Apartheid regime were as bad as each other - I would say if your hearsay was correct, and it could just be the propaganda and bluster of your un named sources, then you would have a point, except the one, major, game changing difference - that Racism had been eradicated from the state mechanism officially.

therefore, all things being equal, the overthrow of Apartheid was a positive, and a basis on which to progress the country into the future - the Apartheid regime was going nowhere and was doomed to failure.

I'm not interested in you as a person, you might be thick as two short planks for all I know, but when you post comment on a remembrance thread, especially denigrating the deceased, then I feel obliged to challenge it, in a polite and informed manner.

If you wish to hide behind accusations of being persecuted by the PC brigade, as if that's an organised group, then please leave me out of it, as I assure you I'm doing this all on my lonesome in my living room on my PC - but don't be surprised when others disagree with your views.

You are quoting my views on inherent traits in all regimes and I never compared the ANC or Apartheid on a points-based system. That's your PC hysteria kicking-in. I never commented on your views on the new state. Again, you aren't reading posts properly.

Who decided this was a "remembrance thread" ? You ? Isn't that a little oppressive ?

I'm not persecuted by anyone BJ.

 

[Ban-jani]

This is ban-mcfc, I've deleted my other account.

I'm pretty sure someone's either hacked my other one or my house mate is taking the piss.

I had a text from a poster on here asking why I'm wumming but I haven't been in the cellar for a few days. My last post was midweek about the game.

just thought i would pop in to say R.I.P Mandela and those of you who know me in the outside world would know I wouldn't act like that.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

When did I say your views on the new state were unreasonable ?

You and mcmanus need to climb down from your PC bandwagon and read people's posts in more detail.

It is quite clear your penultimate sentence is saying I have a problem with the overthrow of the white regime by the blacks. Where did I say that ?

Rather than address my points you, and the PC bandwagon, revert to the defaullt position that anyone who speaks out against Mandela longs for a return to Apartheid and must be racist. It's an intellectual weakness.

Nothing complicated about me. My points are clearly made.

-- Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:29 pm --




It wasn't me mcmanus.

I heard it was your mum.

"I heard during Apartheid and after that the ANC was run along similar lines. You were either with them or against them. If you said the wrong thing, failed to turn up for mass meetings or did anything to catch the attention, you'd be accused by the local village big-mouth of being in league with the whites, or with the Zulus or being an informer and you'd have the life kicked out of you in public just bfore they stuck a necklace round your neck. I heard it could happen if you fell out with someone or shagged the wrong person's misses."

You said the above city boy - and I read it carefully, and I have read other posts from you in the past which show something of a pattern, but that's just impossible for me to ignore when your name pops up.

I repeat, I have read and digested fully your posts, and find them lacking in balance, feel free to do the same with mine.

You were inferring, nay stating, that the ANC and the previous Apartheid regime were as bad as each other - I would say if your hearsay was correct, and it could just be the propaganda and bluster of your un named sources, then you would have a point, except the one, major, game changing difference - that Racism had been eradicated from the state mechanism officially.

therefore, all things being equal, the overthrow of Apartheid was a positive, and a basis on which to progress the country into the future - the Apartheid regime was going nowhere and was doomed to failure.

I'm not interested in you as a person, you might be thick as two short planks for all I know, but when you post comment on a remembrance thread, especially denigrating the deceased, then I feel obliged to challenge it, in a polite and informed manner.

If you wish to hide behind accusations of being persecuted by the PC brigade, as if that's an organised group, then please leave me out of it, as I assure you I'm doing this all on my lonesome in my living room on my PC - but don't be surprised when others disagree with your views.

You are quoting my views on inherent traits in all regimes and I never compared the ANC or Apartheid on a points-based system. That's your PC hysteria kicking-in. I never commented on your views on the new state. Again, you aren't reading posts properly.

Who decided this was a "remembrance thread" ? You ? Isn't that a little oppressive ?

I'm not persecuted by anyone BJ.

Er.... the title says RIP Nelson Mandela - nowt to do with me, forum culture historically means we leave our best wishes and eulogies of the deceased, if that makes me an oppressive PC fascist for wanting to adhere to tradition, then guilty as charged Guvnor.

I'm plainly wasting my time attempting to get you to look at the whole ANC state vs Apartheid state debate, despite your original post's one-sided tirade against the ANC, but in my frustration I question why you wouldn't want to, given your obvious strong feelings.

My PC hysteria kicks in like a motherfucker when a poster refuses to consider a balanced debate - surely that is central to whether Mandela was a hero or a terrorist, is SA a better place now because of him? Is SA heading in the right direction in the future because of him?

I say yes, for all the reasons I've already outlined.

 

[Unknown_Genius]

Mandela's radicalism often ignored by Western admirers

The South African leader was a politically complex figure shaped by national liberation struggles and Cold War tensions


Nelson Mandela will be celebrated primarily for the dignity with which he emerged onto the world stage after decades in prison and for the forgiveness that he displayed toward his former enemies in forging a democratic, multiracial South Africa from the poisoned legacy of apartheid.

As a global statesman of grace and humility, he was long courted by Western leaders drawn by his irresistible story of triumph over tyranny. Yet Mandela, who died on Dec. 5 at 95, was also a more radical and politically complex figure than has been commonly acknowledged by his admirers in the West.

As a young man, he had close ties to the South African Communist Party and plotted an armed uprising inspired by Fidel Castro's 1959 revolution in Cuba.

For many who followed his life closely, that commitment to socialist values and instinctive solidarity with those he saw as fellow strugglers against oppression, colonialism and imperialism continued to burn strongly even in the years after his release from prison and the end of apartheid.

"He came out of prison a senior statesman-in-waiting. He went into prison as a militant revolutionary leader," said Peter Hain, a veteran anti-apartheid campaigner and friend of Mandela's.

"He was seen as a burly freedom fighter, learning how to shoot in Ethiopia and traveling to revolutionary Algeria and other countries while he was underground. We must never forget he was a freedom fighter."
Young radical

Stephen Ellis, a professor of African history at Free University and the African Studies Center in the Netherlands, believes that many people with only a vague awareness of Mandela's struggle against apartheid are simply not aware of his youthful radicalism and commitment to violent means.

Mandela always denied being a card-carrying convert to communism. But Ellis, in his most recent book, "External Mission: The ANC in Exile," claims to have uncovered documentary proof suggesting otherwise, though also suggesting that Mandela was more interested in securing support from Moscow or Beijing than in being a "heart and soul believer."

"If you talk to many American liberals, they think Mandela was Martin Luther King," Ellis said. "If you say, 'No, Mandela started a guerrilla army, he was a communist, he did this, he did that,' they just don't get it. They don't know what you're talking about."

Yet even later, as South African president from 1994 to 1999, Mandela would irk his friends in the West by expressing solidarity with leaders such as Cuba's Castro and Libya's Muammar Gaddafi, as well as finding common cause with the Palestinians in their struggle for statehood.

At a banquet in 1998 honoring Yasser Arafat, the then-Palestinian president, Mandela said: "You come as a leader of a people who have shared with us the experience of struggle for justice. Now that we have achieved our freedom, we have not forgotten our friends and allies who helped us liberate ourselves."


Visiting Libya a year earlier, Mandela had greeted Gaddafi with a kiss on each cheek and said: "My brother leader, my brother leader, how nice to see you."

Yet it was the Cuban revolution that held the highest place in his affections, a bond made stronger by his enduring friendship with Castro. On a visit to the Caribbean island in 1991, Mandela paid tribute to Che Guevara, calling his revolutionary exploits "too powerful for any prison censors to hide from us. The life of Che is an inspiration to all human beings who cherish freedom."

"He was very much inspired by the revolution in Cuba," said David James Smith, author of "Young Mandela." "He was studying what was going on in Cuba with a view to using that as a model for revolutionary activity in South Africa."

Mandela's gratitude extended to other members of the bloc of communist nations that had backed the struggle against apartheid.

In a speech in 1991 he singled out the Soviet Union, East Germany and China for special mention, even as the political landscape of Eastern Europe was being redrawn in the aftermath of the Cold War and despite Beijing's crackdown on pro-democracy protests in 1989.

Out of touch

Ellis believes that Mandela, whose worldview was fundamentally shaped by the national liberation struggles and Cold War tensions of the 1950s, was essentially out of touch with the world in which he found himself on leaving prison in 1990.

In a speech after his release, Mandela reiterated the African National Congress' commitment to the nationalization of banks, mines and industries at a time when free market economics was sweeping all before it.

"It was greeted with total horror, because nobody, even on the left, by 1990 was advocating state ownership of industry. That was all associated with a brand of socialism that had failed," said Ellis.

"He clearly knew almost nothing about the contemporary world. Before he had gone to prison, he was very pro-Soviet. When he comes out of prison the world had changed, and he had difficulty recognizing it."

As a consequence, Ellis said, the ANC leadership steered Mandela away from government and party affairs even when he was the South African president.

Instead, they preferred to use his moral standing and considerable charm as a focus for unity within both the highly factional ANC itself and wider South African society, and for fundraising and publicity purposes by having him pose for photos with the likes of Naomi Campbell and the Spice Girls.

But even after leaving office in 1999, Mandela remained fiercely outspoken in condemning what he saw as flagrant Western imperialism.

In 2003 he lambasted the United States and the United Kingdom for "attempting to police the world" over their military intervention in Kosovo in 1999 and the invasion of Iraq. He even suggested that moves to undermine the United Nations were motivated in part by the rise of a black African, Kofi Annan, to the office of secretary-general.

He also urged U.S. citizens to take to the streets in protest at moves to attack Iraq, accusing President George W. Bush of wanting to "plunge the world into a holocaust."

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America," he added.

Hain, then a minister in Tony Blair's British government, recalls Mandela phoning him at the time of the buildup to the invasion of Iraq, as enraged as he had ever heard him.

"He was just very angry and worried," Hain said.

"But I fully understood why; he is a man of principle. He would do things that offended the Bill Clintons and the Tony Blairs, like he would say to Fidel Castro, 'Thank you for supporting us,' and visit Cuba, or he'd do the same to Gaddafi in Libya."

Smith believes Mandela would have been deeply uncomfortable with efforts to deradicalize his legacy by portraying him in bland terms as simply an inspirational and reconciliatory figure.

"There are many people around him who believe he has been devalued by the use of his celebrity," he said.

"He stood for very firm anti-racist, anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist values. Yes, he would go and do business with the West, but ideologically he would always be first with Castro and independence leaders in Africa. First and foremost he was a black African, and that was where his heart and his politics lay."

<a class="postlink" href="http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/6/mandela-the-radical.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... dical.html</a>

There was a lot of hypocrisy from yesterday. The likes of Obama and Cameron saying what a great guy he was, yet Mandela's values and ideology are the complete antithesis of theirs. He was only removed from the US terror watch list in 2008, and was a terrorist to the Reagen administration, infact the CIA had a hand in his arrest.