Nelson Mandela RIP

[bobmcfc]

Did someone compare Mandela to the Taliban ?

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Did someone compare Mandela to the Taliban ?

Yes, but he is an utter laughing stock who nobody takes seriously.
I may start referring to him as BB3.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

Even I, a person who can see both sides of the argument, am a little shocked and saddened by these comments Ban.

Are you going to post any stat's to verify the claims you made earlier in this thread Bob?

Oh do I have to?

UN Crimes against Humanity commission.
South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Both agreed that of the 21000 or so people killed in the Apartheid era only around 500 people's deaths were due to South Africa's security forces. Horrific I know and completely hard to verify due to the sheer amount of people who just disappeared. We will never know the complete total of people who were killed on both sides in this conflict.

Don't forget, Mandela refused to renounce the violence that his leadership of the MK, the military wing of the ANC, carried out. This included bombings of strategic transport and infrastructure buildings such as power lines and train stations packed with innocent people.

His refusal, or inability, to rein in his first Wife, is also particularly galling especially as her trial was a complete sham.

Still, he did help South Africa break Apartheid, although his role was more as a figurehead, as the real push came from the sanctions that were slowly killing the country and foreign powers.

He then became the countries first black president...for one term and then stepped down. Was he any good? The jury is still out on that I am afraid. He promised a lot but delivered very little. I will stick up for him here though, it would have been a fantastically hard job to even achieve one of his promises given the state of the country he took charge of.

And then...

Ground Force did his garden up, and he promoted peace the world over. Don't get me wrong, in his later years he came across as a very sincere and caring person. Everyone who he met said he had a great sense of humour and was very welcoming. I actually liked the man I just can't get my head around the fact that his previous career has been glossed over so much.

He, indirectly, murdered hundreds if not thousands, without ever saying sorry.

That to me is not the mark of a great man.

Which is a great pity.

Perhaps he should have written a very stern letter to the government instead.
I find it amazing that when governments of this world sanction violence as a solution it is spun as 'regime change' yet when others do it, it is spun as terrorism.

 

[bobmcfc]

Did someone compare Mandela to the Taliban ?

Yes, but he is an utter laughing stock who nobody takes seriously.
I may start referring to him as BB3.

Don't really know what to say so I won't say anything lol. You are better responding to ridiculous comments than I so will let you get on with it lol

 

[sinnerman]

For those who can't see the difference between the Taliban and Mandela. The Taliban use violence to impose their (warped) worldview upon others, whereas Mandela used violence to try and free his people from those that imposed their (warped) worldview upon him and his people. The two philosophies are diametrically opposed.

Unless you're a pacifist, which I'm guessing not many people on here are, then I can't think of a more appropriate situation for the use of violence, than the one that the black South Africans found themselves in.

RIP Nelson Mandela

 

[bluethrunthru]

Bottom line is that Apartheid S.A. was an appalling regime which had backed itself into a corner in the court of world opinion with its totally unjustified race laws. DeKlerk knew they could either face it out and end up in court or bite the bullet and negotiate
His problem then was when the negotiations concluded the outcome was going to be black majority rule and god knew what would happen then . if you look at Zimbabwe you get the picture.
White S.A. put its faith in Mandela and when he came out of prison he stood for President, got elected and was good to his word - no ANC lead bloodbath. When you consider what had happened to Mandela personally and what had happened to black S.A. that in itself was a major achievement. That he went on to help in the resolution of other conflicts shows the guy had a heart and for all these reasons he is a better man than most of us and deserves the adulation he is getting now

 

[lloydie]

Even I, a person who can see both sides of the argument, am a little shocked and saddened by these comments Ban.

Are you going to post any stat's to verify the claims you made earlier in this thread Bob?

Oh do I have to?

UN Crimes against Humanity commission.
South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Both agreed that of the 21000 or so people killed in the Apartheid era only around 500 people's deaths were due to South Africa's security forces. Horrific I know and completely hard to verify due to the sheer amount of people who just disappeared. We will never know the complete total of people who were killed on both sides in this conflict.

Don't forget, Mandela refused to renounce the violence that his leadership of the MK, the military wing of the ANC, carried out. This included bombings of strategic transport and infrastructure buildings such as power lines and train stations packed with innocent people.

His refusal, or inability, to rein in his first Wife, is also particularly galling especially as her trial was a complete sham.

Still, he did help South Africa break Apartheid, although his role was more as a figurehead, as the real push came from the sanctions that were slowly killing the country and foreign powers.

He then became the countries first black president...for one term and then stepped down. Was he any good? The jury is still out on that I am afraid. He promised a lot but delivered very little. I will stick up for him here though, it would have been a fantastically hard job to even achieve one of his promises given the state of the country he took charge of.

And then...

Ground Force did his garden up, and he promoted peace the world over. Don't get me wrong, in his later years he came across as a very sincere and caring person. Everyone who he met said he had a great sense of humour and was very welcoming. I actually liked the man I just can't get my head around the fact that his previous career has been glossed over so much.

He, indirectly, murdered hundreds if not thousands, without ever saying sorry.

That to me is not the mark of a great man.

Which is a great pity.

Source?

Link please.

 

[mcfclovin88]

Ban should have heeded the advice JoTS gave him.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Even I, a person who can see both sides of the argument, am a little shocked and saddened by these comments Ban.

Are you going to post any stat's to verify the claims you made earlier in this thread Bob?

Oh do I have to?

UN Crimes against Humanity commission.
South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Both agreed that of the 21000 or so people killed in the Apartheid era only around 500 people's deaths were due to South Africa's security forces. Horrific I know and completely hard to verify due to the sheer amount of people who just disappeared. We will never know the complete total of people who were killed on both sides in this conflict.

Don't forget, Mandela refused to renounce the violence that his leadership of the MK, the military wing of the ANC, carried out. This included bombings of strategic transport and infrastructure buildings such as power lines and train stations packed with innocent people.

His refusal, or inability, to rein in his first Wife, is also particularly galling especially as her trial was a complete sham.

Still, he did help South Africa break Apartheid, although his role was more as a figurehead, as the real push came from the sanctions that were slowly killing the country and foreign powers.

He then became the countries first black president...for one term and then stepped down. Was he any good? The jury is still out on that I am afraid. He promised a lot but delivered very little. I will stick up for him here though, it would have been a fantastically hard job to even achieve one of his promises given the state of the country he took charge of.

And then...

Ground Force did his garden up, and he promoted peace the world over. Don't get me wrong, in his later years he came across as a very sincere and caring person. Everyone who he met said he had a great sense of humour and was very welcoming. I actually liked the man I just can't get my head around the fact that his previous career has been glossed over so much.

He, indirectly, murdered hundreds if not thousands, without ever saying sorry.

That to me is not the mark of a great man.

Which is a great pity.

Well done for actually showing evidence for why you think Mandela is not the hero so many think he is, and of course this allows us to debate what you have used as evidence, in a reasonable way - the mud slinging and abuse doesn't really help, although it can be inevitable!

I personally don't know anything like enough of his earlier years, but I would question how much Mandela could have influenced the ANC whilst in prison, it wasn't like our soft jails where mobile phones, internet and regular visitors are rife, and as others have said, he was only one man amongst many in the organisation - we do not even know if he tried to stop the guerilla tactics or the bombings.

It is not easy for a young person like Ban to look back at those times without understanding the rest of the world - racism was rife in our country too, Paki, Jew, Black, Irish bashing went on, it was not inconceivable the Apartheid regime could carry on the violence against their own people for centuries, certainly many decades - remember the second world war and all the bloodshed, all the dirty war tactics were fresh in the memory - nuclear bombs dropped on whole cities of innocent people.

The IRA were similarly fighting an urban guerilla war on our own doorstep, the Catholics believed they were being oppressed by the Protestants, and there was solid evidence to back this up, so back then it was deemed acceptable to do what needed to be done for the benefit of the majority - in fact, not too much has changed in the minds of people who believe they are being suppressed or are under an invading force - see the Iraqi's Afghani's etc.. - perhaps that is how it always is and will be - the human instinct to overthrow the yolk allows for sacrificing your own to the cause?

To me, what Mandela has done, and others have pointed this out, is he has come out of 27 years in prison unlike just about any other normal person, and preached reconciliation and peace - inclusivity - he did his time, perhaps for something he had no part in - and chose the path of peace, not revenge.
Can any of us say we could do the same? he showed a rare human quality considering what he had lived 'thru, and he definitely made a difference to his country and the world, all the more remarkable as he could have come out of 27 years of incarceration a broken man. Perhaps the 27 years was what allowed him to shrug off the freedom fighter mantle, the urgency to kill to liberate your people.

He is an example of a man who has been a fighter, a revolutionary, a man of war, and he has successfully, spectacularly turned into the iconic man of peace and equality of our age, and backed it all up with his deeds - SA did not descend into the madness of Zimbabwe, and I hope his legacy is such it never does.

Mandela at 95 years of age, has lived through such changing times, and by the time of his death, has managed to bring his message clearly to the world. I can't think of any other man or woman who has achieved anything similar, to go from a man akin to Gerry Adams, to be held in such reverance to rival a Pope - well to me that deserves recognition, and I hope he sleeps well.

 

[bluespana]

The only proof needed to see his legacy is to look at how he is remembered by the people in South Africa. Outsiders can whitewash history but the great majority of people in the Republic of South Africa know he did more than any man to change the dismal state of the country from a repressive, race-based clique of fiefdoms to a republic based on one person, one vote. In it's short life as a country, RSA has advanced at a steady rate.