Newcastle 1-1 City post match thread

[Claytop]

You two are like a double act.

Surely you must be going round in circles by now.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Honestly I've really enjoyed that little exchange of views. If nothing more it's reminded me that I really know fuck all about this daft game I've followed for 49 years.

Please carry on - I am learning a lot.

By the way, thinking about this, it perhaps might sound like I am being sarcastic or taking the piss? Genuinely I am not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marvin]

Leicester are almost identical to Ferguson's United. Fast, direct, energetic. Two wingers, two strikers and two centre mids.

I am not sure I know how Leicester play now. Got the tremendously gifted Mahrez, but they've played a lot of direct football, and played a lot on the counter-attack.

They are not a team who have tried to impose their game on the opposition and dominate possession. I don't see the two strikers, or the comparison with Ferguson's Utd team.

 

[schfc6]

I am not sure I know how Leicester play now. Got the tremendously gifted Mahrez, but they've played a lot of direct football, and played a lot on the counter-attack.

They are not a team who have tried to impose their game on the opposition and dominate possession. I don't see the two strikers, or the comparison with Ferguson's Utd team.

Yes Udentical to United. Two solid midfield. Fast and direct. Counter attacking.

Okazaki and Vardy are two strikers. They play every week.

 

[schfc6]

It is a fact that we play that way not my opinion. That's why I'm calling it a fact. If it was an opinion I would say 'imo'.

You are telling me DeBruyne is one of the 'two' & also telling me to look at his heat map which proves he actually isn't because he isn't in the penalty area enough, then telling me we have the players for a 4222 & there's no problem with a system where the 2nd player in the two doesn't get into the penalty area. Which is it ? Is he shit at his job or is it the system which is shit or is he not playing in a two at all or is he playing in a two but doesn't get in the penalty area on purpose ? I don't understand what your actual position is. Can you not see that this doesn't make sense in any way at all from any possible interpretation I could make of it ? Do we usually play 4222 yes or no ?

Also you are comparing a team which sits in it's own penalty area & whacks long balls at a striker who runs in behind, to a team who tries to play in the oponent's half and does the absolute opposite. Why ?

What is the point in that ? We couldn't pick a side to sit back & whack the ball with the players at our disposal ? Would Sergio Aguero be happy ? Should we sell him then & sign someone from the lower leagues to run more upfront ?

Or perhaps you are suggesting that Pellegrini would be able to take Leicester's players & go all out attack as he likes to do & they would win the title with Huth etc keeping a high line vs people such as Aguero ?

Again I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

My point, in case you missed it, is that City's players as picked by Pellegrini are not suited to the system he uses, which is an attacking 4222. I'll give you one simple example. Silva. Winger ? No. No 10 ? No (not enough goals) Creative player in different team formation? Yes. Another: Nasri ? Same. Yaya box to box mid ? No. Creative player who scores goals? yes. Possible deep creative player in different system ? Yes. DeBruyne, genuine winger ? No. No 10? Possibly. Aguero line leading cf who likes to hold up the ball or get on the end of crosses or chase long balls, win Joe Hart's goalkicks ? No. DeBruyne /Aguero suitable 'two' in system where that happens ? No. Fernando midfield box to box player? No. Def mid good in the air, protect defence as one of a 3? Yes. Delph left wing? NO. Centre mid workhose who can get forward & back as part of a unit? Yes. Run midfield on his own? No. Navas. Wide player who scores goals & provides assists including aerial crosses? No. Bloke who runs about ? Yes.

Anyone: attacking the penalty area to get on the end of crosses as in a 442 or 4222 no.

Kean Bryan, Manu Garcia, Aleix Garcia, Barker, Celina, & 10 others. Pellegrini style 4222 or 442 ideal ? No. Most other systems ? Yes.

Pellegrini. Any clue about any of them either way.? No. Any idea of how to get the best out of the players available ? No.

Learning to sit tighter & counter attack in europe instead of being lambs to the slaughter ? Possibly. We will see which team he picks.

Totally disagree. I have shown that De Bruyne is nothing like Dzeko nor does he take up a similar position to Dzeko in anyway.

He plays behind a striker but in front of central midfield. He's a tradition 10, similar to Ozil or Eriksen. If you read on you will see just how similar. Their contributions are almost identical.

It's a simple touch map that shows where he contributes on the pitch. It's mainly in the central third. Now I would imagine the central third is largely occupied by midfielders not strikers.

I still maintain we play a version of 4231 that often looks like a 41041 with no one occupying traditional centre midfield roles if Ya Ya plays.

I offered 4222 purely as a hypothetical. I don't agree we play 4222.

I said if we play as you say, who's out of position? Not De Bruyne. Nasri and Silva have played the majority of their careers as inside forwards or floating/drifting wide attackers. Silva has played that role at Valencia, City and Spain. He's played more for Spain as a false 9 than he has in the position you're suggesting.
Ya Ya is no longer a box to box midfielder. So why hasn't the player himself got the professional discipline to play as a deep lying creative player? Where I sit you can hear Joe screaming at him. Asking him to drop. He largely ignores this knowing there's not much can be done about it.

As I say, will continue to say, 4231 which by the way is the way City release their formation to the media which is the way is displayed in the mainstream media suits our players best. You will say 4222, you will continue to ignore his touch map that disproves your opinion.

I understand you think you're thinking beyond what formation is released. I understand you believe it's a 4222. I just disagree. De Bruyne's touch map would suggest I'm right and you're wrong. I've offered visual Independant evidence for my opinion. Again you've just stated your opinion as fact. Have you even looked at the touch map? If so, you are obviously ignoring it for the sake of your point.
In contrast here's a touch map for Ronaldo. If you were telling me he was upfront I'd agree. The contrast in the touch maps is evident and in my opinion unarguable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...aldo-Wayne-Rooney-statistical-comparison.html

For contrast, here's Harry Kane's vs Leicester a striker.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33944776

There is litterally no comparison.

Here's a comparison, an article highlighting the touch maps of Ramsey, Ozil and Eriksen. All have a very similar look to De Bruyne's. Suggesting a similar role?

http://www.sport.net/mesut-ozil-aaron-ramsey-christian-eriksen-and-gareth-barry-stats-revealed_39497

We will all being well line up vs Real with a back four. The two Ferns holding. Silva or Sterling left, Silva or Navas right and De Bruyne linking midfield and attack in his best position.
That for me is our best system. Silva allows you to retain the ball better. Navas and Sterling offer less controle but a better defensive shape and enough quality on the counter. I will be the first to question any inclusion of Toure.

I agree, it's now Silva or Toure against anyone but relegation fodder.

As I say, we can argue this all day long. What isn't arguable in my opinion. Be it 442,4231,422,433. We simply haven't got the midfield for any to be perfect.

 

[flyer]

Preceded by our best of the season. We batter the current champions, AWAY, expect to turn over Real and have a decent advantage to take into the second leg and in between we have that! Only City, lads, only City!

Which is why my love affair has lasted over 50 years. Only City!!

 

[marshymcfc]

well shame we couldnt get the 3 pts but i had them down for 4 pts out of the last 6, were still in the driving seat for 4th minimum

This is how I'm trying to see it as well. We did well to get three from Chelsea so if we beat Stoke we are back on track. Let's hope they've not got their minds on Real Madrid when they play on Saturday.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Totally disagree. I have shown that De Bruyne is nothing like Dzeko nor does he take up a similar position to Dzeko in anyway.

He plays behind a striker but in front of central midfield. He's a tradition 10, similar to Ozil or Eriksen. If you read on you will see just how similar. Their contributions are almost identical.

It's a simple touch map that shows where he contributes on the pitch. It's mainly in the central third. Now I would imagine the central third is largely occupied by midfielders not strikers.

I still maintain we play a version of 4231 that often looks like a 41041 with no one occupying traditional centre midfield roles if Ya Ya plays.

I offered 4222 purely as a hypothetical. I don't agree we play 4222.

I said if we play as you say, who's out of position? Not De Bruyne. Nasri and Silva have played the majority of their careers as inside forwards or floating/drifting wide attackers. Silva has played that role at Valencia, City and Spain. He's played more for Spain as a false 9 than he has in the position you're suggesting.
Ya Ya is no longer a box to box midfielder. So why hasn't the player himself got the professional discipline to play as a deep lying creative player? Where I sit you can hear Joe screaming at him. Asking him to drop. He largely ignores this knowing there's not much can be done about it.

As I say, will continue to say, 4231 which by the way is the way City release their formation to the media which is the way is displayed in the mainstream media suits our players best. You will say 4222, you will continue to ignore his touch map that disproves your opinion.

I understand you think you're thinking beyond what formation is released. I understand you believe it's a 4222. I just disagree. De Bruyne's touch map would suggest I'm right and you're wrong. I've offered visual Independant evidence for my opinion. Again you've just stated your opinion as fact. Have you even looked at the touch map? If so, you are obviously ignoring it for the sake of your point.
In contrast here's a touch map for Ronaldo. If you were telling me he was upfront I'd agree. The contrast in the touch maps is evident and in my opinion unarguable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...aldo-Wayne-Rooney-statistical-comparison.html

For contrast, here's Harry Kane's vs Leicester a striker.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33944776

There is litterally no comparison.

Here's a comparison, an article highlighting the touch maps of Ramsey, Ozil and Eriksen. All have a very similar look to De Bruyne's. Suggesting a similar role?

http://www.sport.net/mesut-ozil-aaron-ramsey-christian-eriksen-and-gareth-barry-stats-revealed_39497

We will all being well line up vs Real with a back four. The two Ferns holding. Silva or Sterling left, Silva or Navas right and De Bruyne linking midfield and attack in his best position.
That for me is our best system. Silva allows you to retain the ball better. Navas and Sterling offer less controle but a better defensive shape and enough quality on the counter. I will be the first to question any inclusion of Toure.

I agree, it's now Silva or Toure against anyone but relegation fodder.

As I say, we can argue this all day long. What isn't arguable in my opinion. Be it 442,4231,422,433. We simply haven't got the midfield for any to be perfect.

The picture you have just painted is the same thing I'm describing. You mention two wide players & DeBruyne linking midfield & attack Yes! if 'attack' you mean only Aguero & you prefer to describe DeBruyne as 'linking' Yes! And that position in a Pellegrini team is one of the 'two'
either like this: x x

Or like this:
x
x
Usually both.

It's not:
x
xxx
Or:
x
xxxx

It's two blokes linking together. The 'attack' you describe DeBruyne linking with, is Aguero, the other part of the '2'.

The other players are 2 wide players & 2 centre mids. If they were tucked in supporting DeBruyne then it would be a 3 behind Aguero but they are told to drift out wide & have responsibility tracking the oppo wide players.

So we are left with two in attack.

We see:

Aguero DeBruyne.
Gap
Or

Aguero
De Bruyne.
Gap.

Not

Aguero
Silva DeBruyne Navas.

He has at City imo chosen a worse version of the system than the one he used in the past, actually weakened his own system. His original 4222 was tighter than this crappy thing with pseudo wide players he uses at City which is like half Sam Allardyce half Pellegrini's old system.


If we were building a team to play in Pellegrini's current style the first thing would be to ditch Silva, Nasri & Yaya. Not sign Sterling or Bony. Find a quality replacement for Navas. Then we would need backup for DeBruyne (but a goalscoring player not a Silva). KEEP RONY LOPES A GOALSCORING NO 10 WHO WAS A CLASS ABOVE ORIGI IN FRANCE, another Fenandinho & backup for him, quick centre backs (KEEP DENAYER).

Nothing Pellegrini does makes any sense.

And as I mentioned.

Just for 5 mins, v Newcastle, for example.

Aguero
DeBruyne Yaya Navas
Delph Fernando

THAT would be a 4231. Not the thing Pellegrini played.

 

[schfc6]

The picture you have just painted is the same thing I'm describing. You mention two wide players & DeBruyne linking midfield & attack Yes! if 'attack' you mean only Aguero & you prefer to describe DeBruyne as 'linking' Yes! And that position in a Pellegrini team is one of the 'two'
either like this: x x

Or like this:
x
x
Usually both.

It's not:
x
xxx
Or:
x
xxxx

It's two blokes linking together. The 'attack' you describe DeBruyne linking with, is Aguero, the other part of the '2'.

The other players are 2 wide players & 2 centre mids. If they were tucked in supporting DeBruyne then it would be a 3 behind Aguero but they are told to drift out wide & have responsibility tracking the oppo wide players.

So we are left with two in attack.

We see:

Aguero DeBruyne.
Gap
Or

Aguero
De Bruyne.
Gap.

Not

Aguero
Silva DeBruyne Navas.

He has at City imo chosen a worse version of the system than the one he used in the past, actually weakened his own system. His original 4222 was tighter than this crappy thing with pseudo wide players he uses at City which is like half Sam Allardyce half Pellegrini's old system.


If we were building a team to play in Pellegrini's current style the first thing would be to ditch Silva, Nasri & Yaya. Not sign Sterling or Bony. Find a quality replacement for Navas. Then we would need backup for DeBruyne (but a goalscoring player not a Silva). KEEP RONY LOPES A GOALSCORING NO 10 WHO WAS A CLASS ABOVE ORIGI IN FRANCE, another Fenandinho & backup for him, quick centre backs (KEEP DENAYER).

Nothing Pellegrini does makes any sense.

And as I mentioned.

Just for 5 mins, v Newcastle, for example.

Aguero
DeBruyne Yaya Navas
Delph Fernando

THAT would be a 4231. Not the thing Pellegrini played.

Ya Ya can't play there. You slate Pellegrini for not learning. He's been utter gash there. Doesn't offer anything offensively and doesn't defend.
If you sat Ya Ya behind Delph and Fernando I may agree.
But, De Bruyne? After his return from injury you'd move him? Not a chance.

We are not building a team for this manager, this is my point. We are building team for another manager. Why have a manager who plays one way and sign players to play another? Would you sign John Stones for Simeone? Would you sign Fernando for Guardiola? Oops. No, you sign horse for courses. We haven't. Simeone likes dogs of war, Guardiola likes cultured passers. Pellegrini rightly or wrongly likes two strikers, attacking central midfielders.

Yes, Denayer should have stayed. Not Pellegrni's choice. He's shown he's a man of his word, to his detriment. So why would he lie to us? Txiki signed Otamendi in desperation trying to bin off Mangala in the process. Look at Txiki for that. We rightly cashed in on Lopes, he's already been binned off by Monaco.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Ya Ya can't play there. You slate Pellegrini for not learning. He's been utter gash there. Doesn't offer anything offensively and doesn't defend.
If you sat Ya Ya behind Delph and Fernando I may agree.
But, De Bruyne? After his return from injury you'd move him? Not a chance.

We are not building a team for this manager, this is my point. We are building team for another manager. Why have a manager who plays one way and sign players to play another? Would you sign John Stones for Simeone? Would you sign Fernando for Guardiola? Oops. No, you sign horse for courses. We haven't. Simeone likes dogs of war, Guardiola likes cultured passers. Pellegrini rightly or wrongly likes two strikers, attacking central midfielders.

Yes, Denayer should have stayed. Not Pellegrni's choice. He's shown he's a man of his word, to his detriment. So why would he lie to us? Txiki signed Otamendi in desperation trying to bin off Mangala in the process. Look at Txiki for that. We rightly cashed in on Lopes, he's already been binned off by Monaco.

I'm not talking about Yaya playing in DeBruyne's position I'm talking about him playing atracking mid thus having someone to feed DeBruyne Aguero & Navas & also help in centre mid. Rather than having Delph tripping over his feet on the wing. The change to DeBruyns's play wiuld he minimal, as you have rightly pointed out that he doesn't stay upfront all the time.

What did our manager do? Fucking put him on the wing in order to weaken the team further by putting on Bony & a half fit Sterling BUT MOST IMORTANTLY KEEPING THE SAME FORMATION. Exactly as I predicted in the match thread.

Who's plan is best? His, moving DeBruyne to the wing, or mine puttng Yaya centre mid & moving DeBruyne a across a little bit ? Then of course from the bench we have Fernandinho who could replace Yaya at centre. But no, we have Bony instead because it's the only way this bloke plays.

I guess you are looking at Pellegrini's fantastic record for using young players as evidence that he didn't decide to prefer his mate Demichelis to Denayer ? Don't think a jury would buy it.

And as for 'building a team' for Pellegrini. No. Not 4222 no. It would set us back fucking decades.
He has a squad. A great squad And his job as manager is to get the best from it. Not to destroy it for an experiment in tactics.

Txiki's mistake is Pellegrini. But unlikely another manager would agree to the same deal.