[OFFICIAL] - Fernando has signed

[jared]

That's a very detailed and informative post. Thanks and welcome to the forum

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

Porto fan here.

Just signed up to the forum. Long time Premier League watcher. Occasional lurker on this forum. Especially since the Garcia signing from Benfica. I thought about registering then, alerting you to what you were buying, in the end I didn't, but I do now, because I am very curious to see what kind of level will Fernando reach in a more challenging league and whether he nails down a place in the team.

Fernando is a player that will be dearly missed at Porto. He was the heart or the lungs of the team. Always the unsung hero. Criminally underrated by everyone, including the board, who never really valued him accordingly to his value to the team. The market always seemed to overlook him as well. He arrived in 2007 from some third division team from Brazil. He was loaned out and quickly managed to be a starter in the top division in Portugal. Next season, Porto lost their very reliable holding midfielder to Atletico Madrid(Paulo Assunção) and Fernando, as a 21 year old filled the hole right away and we never looked back. Ever since then he gradually became a silent beast in the team. Looking back, having played with Falcao, Moutinho, James, Hulk, Lisandro Lopez, Guarin, Lucho and several great players, he has always been my favourite player and really... the most important player. His stamina, his aggressiveness, his selfless work, the way he runs around all game and lasts the full season, arriving at the second half of the season still being dominant was key for Porto. Not only locally, but also internationally, winning the Europa League, almost knocking out United in the quarters of the UCL(in the year they won it).

The one thing that always intrigued me about Fernando was that just as he was so prominent for Porto and with so many players being sold for huge sums, no one seemed to really value and appreciate him. At best, he was linked with the likes of Inter Milan. As said above, he never got a good new contract, so he was always at the start of the season a bit unsettled, feeling unappreciated, not valued, not in contention for the national team. It was frustrating to witness. Once the season started, he was back to his usual self of swallow everything that reached the defensive midfield, contributing to two league titles with no defeats 10/11 and 12/13.

This is where the Javi Garcia part also contributed to my amazement. Manchester City, current Premier League Champions were buying a defensive midfielder in the Portuguese League... and they were shelling out 20M Euros for... Javi Garcia!? Seriously... it was shocking. He was slow, didn't have a great range of acting and got away with a lot because he played for Benfica. I know I am partial, but Javi Garcia and David Luiz are two of the more overrated players that I saw recently in Portugal. That's when I started reading this forum more, just to see what kind of things would be said about him and follow his development in the Premier League. I know that he did prove what I anticipated, he was way overpriced, too slow for the league and looked out of place. He ended up filling a role either as centre back or midfield last season and seems like a reliable character, so in the end, not totally disastrous, but still, very short of the required quality at this level.

Fernando always played at Porto in the 433, sitting behind two complete midfielders. With most of the top teams in Europe playing with only two midfielders in the 4231, Fernando was always looked as someone who lacked the technical ability to play in a two man midfield, pass the ball around, charge forward, being an all around player. He improved a lot over the years. He is much better on the ball now. You could see that he really tried to stand out more and more with the ball(the guy clearly was trying to show that he is more than a destroyer), he is far from Fernandinho's level driving forward, not only technically, but mainly... just lacking the experience of playing further up the pitch, being more comfortable and being able to execute and decide better. That requires experience that he never really had at Porto since he had two other central midfielders ahead of him.

I anticipate him being a regular option for the bigger games, where Pellegrini will likely field a three headed monster in midfield. Some away games as well. It will be interesting to see if he manages to establish himself quickly doing what he does best, which is... chasing everyone and making great tackles. He is a tireless player, very athletic, so the style of play in the Premier League shouldn't be a problem. I am curious to see whether he manages to push Fernandinho for a regular place in the team or maybe Yaya turns into more of a regular attacking midfielder and Silva drifts to the right. One thing is for sure, he will be a bargain. Comparing him with William Carvalho, linked with United, he is much better without the ball, more physical, faster and tenacious. Carvalho is just a smart player, with good feet and good passing range, but he is more likely to be exposed by the pace of the league than Fernando and at Sporting's current asking price, Carvalho is a bit like Mangala, great potential, but great risk.

It took a long time and 27 is an unusual age for a player to leave a league like the Portuguese for the Premier League. In the end, he will have the chance to play for one of the top teams and be challenging for titles and and be tested every week. The road might not have been straightforward, but he managed to find a good place. I'll be closely monitoring his progress. Hopefully he doesn't disappoint.

Great input mate thanks for taking the time to post that. Shame you didn't post about Garcia at the time although I imagine the mard-arses on the forum wouldn't have taken kindly to an honest opinion if it was negative.

You've touched upon Mangala there, any chance you can elaborate?

 

[chris85mcfc]

Welcome to the forum Jakob and thanks for the detailed post

Your thoughts on Mangala would be appreciated? Is he worth the reported 40m Euros?

 

[Jakob]

Being a fan of a rival team, it would be like asking you to comment on a Manchester United player, more often than not, even if you thought you were being 100% neutral, your opinions are fueled by the rivaly. I always had that issue with Benfica players, because Ramires and David Luiz for instance are two obvious names that I never really rated and thought they sold them very well. I guess in Luiz's case I was proven right(despite what PSG paid for him). Ramires is still terrible on the ball, but it seems that his running still is appreciated. Javi Garcia is a much different case. We're talking about a guy that was discarded from Real Madrid(no shame in that, but already leaving the top level). For Benfica he was always at best steady, but never spectacular. He was slow even for the Portuguese League and he didn't really cover that much ground or made much of a difference. He was sold. Matic was giving the chance and he immediately gave Benfica a whole new gear. Even currently, Benfica went out and bought some Serbian guy on the cheap and he does what Garcia did for them. Clearly overpaid and he doesn't have anything special, apart from I guess having a good understanding of the game, being brought up in Spain with Real Madrid and through the youth ranks.

In Portugal, Porto and Benfica have been selling players for huge sums for the last few years. "Sponsored" by funds and mainly Jorge Mendes(Ronaldo and Mourinho's agent who seems to dominate the market). Things are very inflated. Clubs sell players for 30M, but only really cash in 15 most times. It's a bit ridiculous and something that I am against(I would be in favour of clubs having to have 100% of the players economic rights), at the same time, that is probably what has driven the Portuguese League(or rather these two clubs in particular) to put the League right up there near the Italian League in the UEFA rankings and above the French League. The Dutch League has been completely blown away and they probably should be on par with Portugal.

I say this because the business with Portuguese clubs, despite them being on the stock market and having to report these sales to the stock exchance, is very shady to put it this way. For instance, Fernando's contract was running out. He was thought to be leaving on a free, City having agreed personal therms with him. Mangala only became a client of Mendes recently(in the last year when his market value was already sky high). It was thought(back in January) that Porto were using Mangala to get some money for Fernando as well. Mangala's economic rights are owned by Porto and some funds. So the price was tied to the two players. It was given as a done deal with City. Last summer, some well positioned people at the club mentioned that they had rejected a 45M(Euros) offer for him from Chelsea. The process of the sale of Mangala has become very confusing, because basically he should have already signed for City, considering the info that leaked out in January. Back at Porto, some people aren't even sure that Fernando really signed a new contract! So, I do believe that Mangala has 'already' signed for City, I just don't understand what is delaying it. Chelsea bidding for him would make some sense, considering the lure of London and Mourinho being so close to Mendes,

Sporting wise, Porto seems to have moved on from Mangala already. That Dutch defender at the World Cup, Martins Indi, seems to have been signed for a considerable amount(8.5M) and some other moves indicate that Mangala is as good as gone.

Mangala came in from Standard Liege for a reasonable amount(6-7M). Porto eventually sold a part of his economic rights to a fund(as always...). He arrived in 2011/2012, the season after Villas Boas won everything at Porto and all the players were sought after in the market and most of them were wanting to leave and make a big contract abroad. So that season, 11/12, was really difficult. The club had to navigate through finding a new manager(picking AVB's assistant manager), selling players(like Falcao..), buying replacements and resisting offers for others, who stayed but were unsettled. Porto were seeds in the Champions League, but went out in the group stage. Went out early in the Cup. The new manager was never respected and there was always turbulence around the club. In the League, somehow managed to be in contention and in the end stole the league away from Benfica with their choking. So, it was not a good platform for new players to perform. Mangala didn't impress very much. He hardly played. Red flags were raised about him because he made too many errors and committed too many fouls and very hard ones.

In 12/13, Porto also didn't enjoy an easy season. In the previous season Falcao was lost and a decent replacement wasn't found. This time it was Hulk being sold(I know he flopped against City and isn't highly thought of in England generally, but he was great for Porto) and no replacement stepped up, so it was again a struggle the whole season, grinding out results. Very short squad. Some clear handicaps in the team. Again it was not an easy season for new players to flourish. The manager was still questioned(despite having won the league the previous year). Mangala was first used as a left back, he struggled mightly going forward at the start, this was the first season where he played regularly. While he was struggling at left back, the game time(which he lacked the previous season) were helping him settle in and be more composed and assured playing. He eventually moved to centre back and finished the season there with the emergency appearance at left back when necessary(Porto didn't have a backup left back!). While he impressed in many games due to his physicality, he still had too many mental errors, giving away cheap fouls and lacking positional awareness. Otamendi, who partnered him, had a better season.

13/14 was an horrible season for Porto. These last three seasons described, despite two league titles, have been hard to watch. This was one of the worst season of the last decades. The new manager was worse than Moyes. The team lost their identity, leaked comedy goals regularly and no one looked good. Despite this, Mangala became a leader of the team. He is(or was since he is gone) identified with the club, gave his all and is an humble guy. Played the day he found out his dad was passed away. Was made one of the captains of the team.

Porto has had the likes of Ricardo Carvalho and Pepe in the last decade. Both sold for huge sums. Pepe is a good comparison, he also was very raw like Mangala and took a couple of seasons to polish at Porto, but when he left for Real Madrid(2007 30M) he was more polished than Mangala. You're basically buying (huge) potential, but still a very raw player with a lot of unknown about him. I personally think that many of his errors in Portugal were due to him not being challenged enough and relying on his physical attributes to make up for his mental errors. I always imagined that in a tougher league, with a manager on his toes and higher demands of him, that he'd be more focused and alert. Also, as I explained before, Porto didn't have the best of periods recently to nurture players like in the previous years.

He has grown a lot from 2011 to now, with his experience at left back, he also improved technically and he became very decent charging forward from the centre back position. While he hasn't played at the World Cup for France, he started a couple of games(friendly against the Dutch and the key game with Ukraine in the playoff), and he hardly put a foot wrong, I imagined he would be in contention to start given his performances and good critics(and thought Porto would be able to demand his ridiculous release fee of 50M), it seems that he is fourth choice for France. He is definitely better than the Liverpool guy. Koscielny is more of a wild card with the way he anticipates plays and commits to challenges. Mangala would be a mix of both. Great presence, but still very fast and agile. He proved in thos games(playing in the Stade de France) that he has it in him to be more cerebral and steady. He just needs to find that consistency to do it all the time and not have brain dead errors. Maybe take down his aggressiveness a notch and read the game a bit better, given his immense athletic ability, he will always be able to make up for the half second he takes to process better decisions.

So, yeah, 40M... overpriced, but I suppose with these inflated fees(David Luiz for 50M distorts everything) and clubs going after the same players, you just have to overpay now. Clearly. He wasn't a consistent performer Porto. As in, at his best... it would be impossible to replace his impact and things that he did that not many athletes are able to do, but at the same time, overall, you'd be able to find someone less spectacular, but more consistent and steady. Giving you an example, Garay from Benfica and Argentina, was sold for 6M, he is way less spectacular, but he had a much better season. He moved to Russia. Mangala is moving to the Premier League Champions. Why? Potential. I feel like you're buying for a price as if he was the finished article of a top centre back, the thing is... he isn't finished! Back here, you'd love him one game. Hate him the next. Does he have the tools to be great? Definitely. Will he be? No one can say, but he has shown enough to believe he can reach that level. You're paying one year in advance for the level that he probably would have next year.

 

[Jimbob]

Being a fan of a rival team, it would be like asking you to comment on a Manchester United player, more often than not, even if you thought you were being 100% neutral, your opinions are fueled by the rivaly. I always had that issue with Benfica players, because Ramires and David Luiz for instance are two obvious names that I never really rated and thought they sold them very well. I guess in Luiz's case I was proven right(despite what PSG paid for him). Ramires is still terrible on the ball, but it seems that his running still is appreciated. Javi Garcia is a much different case. We're talking about a guy that was discarded from Real Madrid(no shame in that, but already leaving the top level). For Benfica he was always at best steady, but never spectacular. He was slow even for the Portuguese League and he didn't really cover that much ground or made much of a difference. He was sold. Matic was giving the chance and he immediately gave Benfica a whole new gear. Even currently, Benfica went out and bought some Serbian guy on the cheap and he does what Garcia did for them. Clearly overpaid and he doesn't have anything special, apart from I guess having a good understanding of the game, being brought up in Spain with Real Madrid and through the youth ranks.

In Portugal, Porto and Benfica have been selling players for huge sums for the last few years. "Sponsored" by funds and mainly Jorge Mendes(Ronaldo and Mourinho's agent who seems to dominate the market). Things are very inflated. Clubs sell players for 30M, but only really cash in 15 most times. It's a bit ridiculous and something that I am against(I would be in favour of clubs having to have 100% of the players economic rights), at the same time, that is probably what has driven the Portuguese League(or rather these two clubs in particular) to put the League right up there near the Italian League in the UEFA rankings and above the French League. The Dutch League has been completely blown away and they probably should be on par with Portugal.

I say this because the business with Portuguese clubs, despite them being on the stock market and having to report these sales to the stock exchance, is very shady to put it this way. For instance, Fernando's contract was running out. He was thought to be leaving on a free, City having agreed personal therms with him. Mangala only became a client of Mendes recently(in the last year when his market value was already sky high). It was thought(back in January) that Porto were using Mangala to get some money for Fernando as well. Mangala's economic rights are owned by Porto and some funds. So the price was tied to the two players. It was given as a done deal with City. Last summer, some well positioned people at the club mentioned that they had rejected a 45M(Euros) offer for him from Chelsea. The process of the sale of Mangala has become very confusing, because basically he should have already signed for City, considering the info that leaked out in January. Back at Porto, some people aren't even sure that Fernando really signed a new contract! So, I do believe that Mangala has 'already' signed for City, I just don't understand what is delaying it. Chelsea bidding for him would make some sense, considering the lure of London and Mourinho being so close to Mendes,

Sporting wise, Porto seems to have moved on from Mangala already. That Dutch defender at the World Cup, Martins Indi, seems to have been signed for a considerable amount(8.5M) and some other moves indicate that Mangala is as good as gone.

Mangala came in from Standard Liege for a reasonable amount(6-7M). Porto eventually sold a part of his economic rights to a fund(as always...). He arrived in 2011/2012, the season after Villas Boas won everything at Porto and all the players were sought after in the market and most of them were wanting to leave and make a big contract abroad. So that season, 11/12, was really difficult. The club had to navigate through finding a new manager(picking AVB's assistant manager), selling players(like Falcao..), buying replacements and resisting offers for others, who stayed but were unsettled. Porto were seeds in the Champions League, but went out in the group stage. Went out early in the Cup. The new manager was never respected and there was always turbulence around the club. In the League, somehow managed to be in contention and in the end stole the league away from Benfica with their choking. So, it was not a good platform for new players to perform. Mangala didn't impress very much. He hardly played. Red flags were raised about him because he made too many errors and committed too many fouls and very hard ones.

In 12/13, Porto also didn't enjoy an easy season. In the previous season Falcao was lost and a decent replacement wasn't found. This time it was Hulk being sold(I know he flopped against City and isn't highly thought of in England generally, but he was great for Porto) and no replacement stepped up, so it was again a struggle the whole season, grinding out results. Very short squad. Some clear handicaps in the team. Again it was not an easy season for new players to flourish. The manager was still questioned(despite having won the league the previous year). Mangala was first used as a left back, he struggled mightly going forward at the start, this was the first season where he played regularly. While he was struggling at left back, the game time(which he lacked the previous season) were helping him settle in and be more composed and assured playing. He eventually moved to centre back and finished the season there with the emergency appearance at left back when necessary(Porto didn't have a backup left back!). While he impressed in many games due to his physicality, he still had too many mental errors, giving away cheap fouls and lacking positional awareness. Otamendi, who partnered him, had a better season.

13/14 was an horrible season for Porto. These last three seasons described, despite two league titles, have been hard to watch. This was one of the worst season of the last decades. The new manager was worse than Moyes. The team lost their identity, leaked comedy goals regularly and no one looked good. Despite this, Mangala became a leader of the team. He is(or was since he is gone) identified with the club, gave his all and is an humble guy. Played the day he found out his dad was passed away. Was made one of the captains of the team.

Porto has had the likes of Ricardo Carvalho and Pepe in the last decade. Both sold for huge sums. Pepe is a good comparison, he also was very raw like Mangala and took a couple of seasons to polish at Porto, but when he left for Real Madrid(2007 30M) he was more polished than Mangala. You're basically buying (huge) potential, but still a very raw player with a lot of unknown about him. I personally think that many of his errors in Portugal were due to him not being challenged enough and relying on his physical attributes to make up for his mental errors. I always imagined that in a tougher league, with a manager on his toes and higher demands of him, that he'd be more focused and alert. Also, as I explained before, Porto didn't have the best of periods recently to nurture players like in the previous years.

He has grown a lot from 2011 to now, with his experience at left back, he also improved technically and he became very decent charging forward from the centre back position. While he hasn't played at the World Cup for France, he started a couple of games(friendly against the Dutch and the key game with Ukraine in the playoff), and he hardly put a foot wrong, I imagined he would be in contention to start given his performances and good critics(and thought Porto would be able to demand his ridiculous release fee of 50M), it seems that he is fourth choice for France. He is definitely better than the Liverpool guy. Koscielny is more of a wild card with the way he anticipates plays and commits to challenges. Mangala would be a mix of both. Great presence, but still very fast and agile. He proved in thos games(playing in the Stade de France) that he has it in him to be more cerebral and steady. He just needs to find that consistency to do it all the time and not have brain dead errors. Maybe take down his aggressiveness a notch and read the game a bit better, given his immense athletic ability, he will always be able to make up for the half second he takes to process better decisions.

So, yeah, 40M... overpriced, but I suppose with these inflated fees(David Luiz for 50M distorts everything) and clubs going after the same players, you just have to overpay now. Clearly. He wasn't a consistent performer Porto. As in, at his best... it would be impossible to replace his impact and things that he did that not many athletes are able to do, but at the same time, overall, you'd be able to find someone less spectacular, but more consistent and steady. Giving you an example, Garay from Benfica and Argentina, was sold for 6M, he is way less spectacular, but he had a much better season. He moved to Russia. Mangala is moving to the Premier League Champions. Why? Potential. I feel like you're buying for a price as if he was the finished article of a top centre back, the thing is... he isn't finished! Back here, you'd love him one game. Hate him the next. Does he have the tools to be great? Definitely. Will he be? No one can say, but he has shown enough to believe he can reach that level. You're paying one year in advance for the level that he probably would have next year.

This guy should post more often, that was a really good read.

 

[maccadon]

Thank you for your posts jakob.very informative

 

[Tricky_Trev]

Sounds like a huge gamble. And some of Txiki's defensive signings at Barca don't fill me with confidence! Remember Chygrynskiy for €25m!? They bought potential, and he was a disaster. Hmm, I wasn't really fussed before, but now I'd much prefer Benatia.

 

[dom]

Re: Fernando is done

Fernandinho can play further forward, did you not see him the other day for Brazil?
Rodwell is a box to box type of player who is a perma crock although I would be delighted to see him play for us.
When the hell was Milner ever a DM?

Fernandinho's no Yaya though but don't get me wrong he's a quality player & although not 1st or 2nd choice for Brazil he's done his claim for a starting place no harm. (is he worth 30 mil?)
Rodwell, again I like him too & probably wrong to label him defensive the same with Milner but will he ever be fit?
My main point was yet another centre midfielder instead of strengthening other areas, upfront, attacking midfielder & centre half. I don't know too much about Fernando apart from he plays in one of the easier leagues in Europe & didn't make the Brazil squad. Will Garcia be off now?

I would do a little research before making comment

This ^^^
You seem a little confused , 'Kippaxman' ....

 

[AdamoTheGreat]

Welcome Jakob! and thank you for the great insight.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Good read .
Let's not forget that although he went into some detail , it is still just the opinion of a fan of a certain club .
His view on Garcia , for example , was accurate up to the point where the player finally got up to speed in the PL .
We all agreed, when he arrived here, that he had obvious shortcomings , but at the end of last season , we all seemed to agree that he had been an essential part of our success.
"Snapshot " views of players can be quite misleading.