Operation Overlord

I visited Normandy 5 years ago and its a very special experience . Imagine scaling the cliffs of Pointe du hoc with someone lobbing grenades at you, or jumping into 6 foot of freezing water laden down with kit with machine guns churning the water. I am pretty sure I'd be lying at the bottom of the landing craft refusing to get out at any price. Its the guts of these men that amazes me .The Merville Battery was an amazing demonstration of this grit where 600 British paras were tasked with capturing a system of gun emplacements but only 150 made it from the drop zones. If I'd been in charge I would have said bad luck we'll wait for re-inforcements but not the paras they stormed and captured it with heavy losses though the Germans re-occupied it later that day after the paras moved on to another objective. The movie The Longest Day was perhaps the fairest portrayal of the Allied Invasion.
 
Henkeman said:
The amphibious assault element was largely carried out by the British too, they are the ones who took the Americans in. It's no biggie, I don't have a problem really with that portrayal, but as a matter of historical accuracy, it was mostly the British/Commonwealth forces (i.e naval/marine) who got the Americans onto Omaha and Gold as well.

As an aside, the ones who really get ignored are the Canadians. The RCN went from nowhere to the third largest navy on the planet inside five years. Quite, quite extraordinary.

And here's your little film/television story. James Doohan - Scotty from Star Trek - was wounded by friendly fire (shot six times) in the D Day landings, losing his finger, which you can occasionally see in some scenes, though he hid it.
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Gold beach was stormed by British/Commonwealth forces. The US forces came ashore on Utah and Omaha beaches.
 
movie_the-longest-day-1962.jpg
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
I have wondered over the last few days what might have been the scenario if Corbyn had been around in the late 30's - what particular stance would he have adopted. I doubt very much he would have taken up the line that Churchill thundered out!
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You can pretty well answer your question by studying the Labour Party's attitude in the 1930s. They slowly moved from a policy of peace and disarmament to very strong opposition to Hitler. Their position was, if anything, more hard line than that of the Tories, who only really abandoned appeasement after Munich.

It is also well worth remembering that Churchill was a total maverick, widely despised and distrusted by large sections of even his own party. He only became PM pretty much because Halifax did not want the job and Labour were unwilling to serve in a coalition under Chamberlain, but were willing to accept Churchill. Attlee was arguably more Left than Corbyn - remember in government post war he set up the NHS and instituted a massive programme of nationalisation despite the national debt/GDP position being infinitely worse than it is at present. Only in foreign/commonwealth matters was the 1945 Labour Government to the RW of what we see now.
 
manclad said:
Gold beach was stormed by British/Commonwealth forces. The US forces came ashore on Utah and Omaha beaches.
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No, you're misunderstanding. It's not about the troops themselves, it's about the units that got them there - the beach parties, beachmasters, naval vessels and landing craft - which were largely British for every beach. As I said above, over 3,000 of the 4,000 landing craft and crews therein were British.
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
I have wondered over the last few days what might have been the scenario if Corbyn had been around in the late 30's - what particular stance would he have adopted. I doubt very much he would have taken up the line that Churchill thundered out!
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George Lansbury is your clue. He's one of Corbyn's heroes.
 
Henkeman said:
No, you're misunderstanding. It's not about the troops themselves, it's about the units that got them there - the beach parties, beachmasters, naval vessels and landing craft - which were largely British for every beach. As I said above, over 3,000 of the 4,000 landing craft and crews therein were British.
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OK
I understand now. I always thought that the troops storming onto the beach would have been transported there by their own logistical forces.
It is new information for me that it was mostly done by Commonwealth forces on all 5 beaches.
 
manclad said:
OK
I understand now. I always thought that the troops storming onto the beach would have been transported there by their own logistical forces.
It is new information for me that it was mostly done by Commonwealth forces on all 5 beaches.
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The US were fighting a rather big war in the Pacific. And (just about) at this point, the RN was the biggest navy in the world. From this point onwards, US power surpassed British in every way. Hence the original point that you can consider D Day Britain's last as a superpower.

If you want the shorthand for it, it was a British operation to get the Americans ashore, which is obviously simplistic, but gives the gist.
 
I once asked a friend of mine who had been in in the US army, "Who was the greatest, most capable officer ever associated with the US military." He said without hesitation, "General George Marshall."

Churchill wrote this to him at the end of the war. He was truly a great man.

“It has not fallen to your lot to command the great armies. You have had to create them, organise them, and inspire them. Under your guiding hand the mighty and valiant formations which have swept across France and Germany were brought into being and perfected in an amazingly short space of time. . . . You have been the mainspring of that marvellous organisation, the Combined Chiefs of Staff, whose conduct and relationship will ever be a model for the planning and supervision of Allied and Combined operations. There has grown in my breast through all these years of mental exertion a respect and admiration for your character and massive strength which has been a real comfort to your fellow-toilers, of whom I hope it will always be recorded that I was one.” (Churchill to Marshall, May 17, 1945)
 
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citizenyank76 said:
I once asked a friend of mine who was in the Army who was the greatest, most capable officer ever associated with the US Military. He said without hesitation, "General George Marshall." Churchill wrote this too him after the war. He was truly a great man.

“It has not fallen to your lot to command the great armies. You have had to create them, organise them, and inspire them. Under your guiding hand the mighty and valiant formations which have swept across France and Germany were brought into being and perfected in an amazingly short space of time. . . . You have been the mainspring of that marvellous organisation, the Combined Chiefs of Staff, whose conduct and relationship will ever be a model for the planning and supervision of Allied and Combined operations. There has grown in my breast through all these years of mental exertion a respect and admiration for your character and massive strength which has been a real comfort to your fellow-toilers, of whom I hope it will always be recorded that I was one.” (Churchill to Marshall, May 17, 1945)
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That's a great post. He's condemned to have his name known to posterity without the man himself being recognised as he should.
 
citizenyank76 said:
I once asked a friend of mine who was in the Army who was the greatest, most capable officer ever associated with the US Military. He said without hesitation, "General George Marshall." Churchill wrote this too him after the war. He was truly a great man.

“It has not fallen to your lot to command the great armies. You have had to create them, organise them, and inspire them. Under your guiding hand the mighty and valiant formations which have swept across France and Germany were brought into being and perfected in an amazingly short space of time. . . . You have been the mainspring of that marvellous organisation, the Combined Chiefs of Staff, whose conduct and relationship will ever be a model for the planning and supervision of Allied and Combined operations. There has grown in my breast through all these years of mental exertion a respect and admiration for your character and massive strength which has been a real comfort to your fellow-toilers, of whom I hope it will always be recorded that I was one.” (Churchill to Marshall, May 17, 1945)
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Wasn’t this the same man who instigated the Marshall Plan after the war that helped to rebuild Western Europe? The Russians refused to have anything to do with it as they wanted to control anything that went on in Eastern Europe.
 
Henkeman said:
That's a great post. He's condemned to have his name known to posterity without the man himself being recognised as he should.
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Yeah. I can think of maybe three or four appearances in Hollywood films where he's a background character. But among American military officers he's a near god. There's a story that after a tour of duty in the Philippines, his commanding officer said he would like to serve with him again, provided Marshall was HIS commanding officer. The way a lot of former American military personnel see our European WWII theater of operations; "Patton was a great ass kicker but he was an egomaniac" and "Bradley was quiet but extremely dependable and loyal" and "Ike was the political guy who was always made sure his assignment performances were noted by higher command." But Marshall is always talked about in these hush tones of reverence among even enlisted men nowadays. I take it that he must have been quite an officer.
 
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Gabriel said:
He'll likely remain far better-known for his post-war role as Secretary of State in the Truman administration and the eponymous plan that saw much of Western Europe rebuilt.
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Yep. That's what I mean - most have heard of the Marshall Plan, ask them about the man though...
 
citizenyank76 said:
Yeah. I can think of maybe three or four appearances in Hollywood films where he's a background character. But among American military officers he's a near god. There's a story that after a tour of duty in the Philippines, his commanding officer said he would like to service with him again, provided Marshall was HIS commanding officer. The way a lot of American military officers see the WWII theater of operations; "Patton was a great ass kicker but he was an egomaniac" and "Bradley was quiet but extremely dependable and loyal" and Ike "was the political guy who was always made his assignment duties was noted by higher command." But Marhsall is always talked about in these hush tones of reverence among even enlisted men nowadays. I take it that he must have been quite an officer.
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It's quite often not the ones the public know that are held in the greatest esteem. I had a conversation with an American friend who idly wondered why there were so few great British generals. There are plenty of course, but I gently reminded him that a naval power with (usually) a small army was bound to have many more famous admirals than generals for one thing, but also pointed out that as far as the second World war went, Field Marshal Slim was perhaps the greatest British Army commander, adored by his troops because he cared about them, and a superb strategist. I believe his Defeat Into Victory is still compulsory reading in US officer training colleges as well as here.

But barely anyone in the public has heard of him - the Forgotten (far east) War indeed.
 
Fred_Quimby said:
Wasn’t this the same man who instigated the Marshall Plan after the war that helped to rebuild Western Europe? The Russians refused to have anything to do with it as they wanted to control anything that went on in Eastern Europe.
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Yes. He also won the Nobel Prize and became Secretary of State and Defense later. He had his later mistakes, of course. But then again, who doesn't?
 
Henkeman said:
It's quite often not the ones the public know that are held in the greatest esteem. I had a conversation with an American friend who idly wondered why there were so few great British generals. There are plenty of course, but I gently reminded him that a naval power with (usually) a small army was bound to have many more famous admirals than generals for one thing, but also pointed out that as far as the second World war went, Field Marshal Slim was perhaps the greatest British Army commander, adored by his troops because he cared about them, and a superb strategist. I believe his Defeat Into Victory is still compulsory reading in US officer training colleges as well as here.

But barely anyone in the public has heard of him - the Forgotten (far east) War indeed.
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I believe Zhukov and Slim were probably the two greatest commanders in WWII. I know Eisenhower said that Zhukov was. But Slim's ability to motivate his troops was legendary. As far as Slims later life, an Aussie friend told me there was a scandal or something.
 
citizenyank76 said:
Yes. He also won the Nobel Prize and became Secretary of State and Defense later. He had his later mistakes, of course. But then again, who doesn't?
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At this point, it's customary to highlight a British officer who has the greatest biographical entry in Wikipedia, bar none:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart

Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart[1] VC, KBE, CB, CMG, DSO (5 May 1880 – 5 June 1963) was a British Army officer born of Belgian and Irish parents. He was awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest military decoration awarded for valour "in the face of the enemy" in various Commonwealth countries.[2] He served in the Boer War, First World War, and Second World War. He was shot in the face, head, stomach, ankle, leg, hip, and ear; survived two plane crashes; tunnelled out of a prisoner-of-war camp; and tore off his own fingers when a doctor refused to amputate them. Describing his experiences in the First World War, he wrote, "Frankly I had enjoyed the war."[3]:89

I mean, fucking lol
 
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