I'm no cynic but...
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Replace the ship with smoking chimneys and let the global warming lot have their bit of fun.
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- Thread starter RiversideBlue
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Well, a Man is a breast, so we’re Mancs are basically ‘tits’ so that’s a sexually inappropriate word so we can’t be called that any longer.Can we still be called Mancs?
LongsightM13
Well-Known Member
The Isle of Man lot will be offended we haven’t spelled it with an XWell, a Man is a breast, so we’re Mancs are basically ‘tits’ so that’s a sexually inappropriate word so we can’t be called that any longer.
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Deleted member 77198
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POTTAt the risk of opening all this up again, what is this "our history" of which you speak. There is the history of my personal ancestors which, generally speaking, I have been able to trace back to the 17th century. I can tell you I have no ancestors who got rich on the back of the industrial revolution and the growth of empire. I have people who dragged themselves up to working class, and in some instances lower middle class, on the back of the benefits of both, but none who were involved in decision-making that would make me feel remotely anxious about my personal history. I suspect you, as a proud Brit/Spaniard can also trace your ancestry back to the same period. Does your personal history have any ancestors who were actually responsible for events that we would now call atrocities? I doubt it.
So then there is History, with a capital h, as an amalgam of all the histories of our own personal ancestors. That includes all the empires that have come and gone, all the atrocities performed by the Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans (I could go on), and yes, the British, Spanish, French and Germans to name but a few. But that is as impersonal to me as it gets. I contributed in no way to it and, as far as I can make out with almost certainty, nor did any of my ancestors. It is interesting to study, sure. Lessons can be learned about how to behave, sure. But even leaving aside the contemporary contexts, in which, presumably, all these events, which we now consider atrocities, were considered to be normal behaviour until they weren't, I still have no personal feelings about any of it. Things happened, we now consider some of them bad. Done and dusted.
And this isn't revionist denialism. No-one, as far as I can see, is denying any of it happened. Revisionist denialism would be removing the boat from the city's heraldic achievement because of some tenuous link to an atrocity which the city's population made efforts, at some cost, to end.
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Deleted member 77198
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No. But I’m not arsed that it happened.Viking ship so raping & pillaging is ok?
Vikings came to Britain and Ireland over centuries and killed many British and Irish men, women and children and conquered and controlled many areas of Britain subjugating and enslaving many in the population.
Vikings took British women as slaves to copulate with to enable them to set up populations in Iceland and Greenland. I know about it, British women know about it, I’m sure Norwegians and Danes know about it. It’s the past, there’s nothing in it for anyone to need to do other than know it happened. Nobody needs to feel guilt about it, City don’t need to stop singing ‘TBTITLAATW’, Widnes RLFC don’t need to change their club name, Scandinavia and Iceland don’t need to tear down any statues of their conquerors or slavers if they have any or scrub out any insignia that represents their empire, nobody in Britain wants reparations from those countries… nor the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Normans or Dutch.
It’s just history and doesn’t mean anything more than a story to anyone alive today.
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SanPellegrini
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What has the world come to. Woke culture is all about emotions, at the expense of facts, personal freedoms and now apparently local histories. This is considered newsworthy? Future generations will look back on the culture of these times as a massive mistake I’m sure of it
LongsightM13
Well-Known Member
It’s nothing to do with ‘woke’What has the world come to. Woke culture is all about emotions, at the expense of facts, personal freedoms and now apparently local histories. This is considered newsworthy? Future generations will look back on the culture of these times as a massive mistake I’m sure of it
It’s the Guardian trying to throw the city of Manchester and its institutions under the bus to deflect from its own self flaggelation
blueish swede
Well-Known Member
It's good that Lincoln has been mentioned and Manchesters efforts to support the North in the civil war, but that is only one aspect of Manchester's long and victorious fight againt slavery.
Yes the city was built on cotton, and cotton was built on slavery, but Manchester has always faced the truth of it's existence and has a proud tradition as an abolitionist City. In particular Manchester was a hot bed of the Quaker and Methodist movements - and their relentless campaigning against slavery was decisive in bringing about change.
The free black community in Manchester dates back to around 1750, maybe earlier, when slavery was still legal in England and before the US was even a country. When Thomas Clarkson, the Quaker abolitionist spoke at Manchester Catherdral in 1787 he noted in his diary that there were about 50 free black people at the front of the audience. An abolitionit petition from around the same time was signed by half the adult population of the city.
When slavery was abolished in England, the Mancheser aboloitionists continued their campaign to have it oulawed in the whole of the Empire. It was oulawed in the West Indies in 1833, then the major source of Manchesters cotton. The American Civil war was 30 years later, and again Manchester stood on the side of abolition and equality.
But even after the fight continued. When Gandhi organised in India to end indentured labour at the start of the 20th century, Manchester was again at the forefront, because, again, cotton was a common link. His boycott of foreign goods also hit the cotton industry hard, but when he visited the North West he was greeted as a hero by the mill workers.
Ships can carry slaves, and ships can carry cotton, but they can also carry free people, and with them ideas:
The idea that trade should be free to all, not resrticted by guilds.
The idea that no man can own another.
The idea of co-operatives working in unity for the common good.
The idea that all men should be able to vote, irrespective of status or wealth.
The idea that a woman can know her own mind and even she have the right to vote.
The idea that we are all of us made up of collections of invisible particles we call atoms and molecules.
The ships brought cotton, harvested from misery, to Machester - but what cargoes they have carried on their return journeys!
Yes the city was built on cotton, and cotton was built on slavery, but Manchester has always faced the truth of it's existence and has a proud tradition as an abolitionist City. In particular Manchester was a hot bed of the Quaker and Methodist movements - and their relentless campaigning against slavery was decisive in bringing about change.
The free black community in Manchester dates back to around 1750, maybe earlier, when slavery was still legal in England and before the US was even a country. When Thomas Clarkson, the Quaker abolitionist spoke at Manchester Catherdral in 1787 he noted in his diary that there were about 50 free black people at the front of the audience. An abolitionit petition from around the same time was signed by half the adult population of the city.
When slavery was abolished in England, the Mancheser aboloitionists continued their campaign to have it oulawed in the whole of the Empire. It was oulawed in the West Indies in 1833, then the major source of Manchesters cotton. The American Civil war was 30 years later, and again Manchester stood on the side of abolition and equality.
But even after the fight continued. When Gandhi organised in India to end indentured labour at the start of the 20th century, Manchester was again at the forefront, because, again, cotton was a common link. His boycott of foreign goods also hit the cotton industry hard, but when he visited the North West he was greeted as a hero by the mill workers.
Ships can carry slaves, and ships can carry cotton, but they can also carry free people, and with them ideas:
The idea that trade should be free to all, not resrticted by guilds.
The idea that no man can own another.
The idea of co-operatives working in unity for the common good.
The idea that all men should be able to vote, irrespective of status or wealth.
The idea that a woman can know her own mind and even she have the right to vote.
The idea that we are all of us made up of collections of invisible particles we call atoms and molecules.
The ships brought cotton, harvested from misery, to Machester - but what cargoes they have carried on their return journeys!
mcfcinprague
Well-Known Member
Debate on Piers Morgan - Talk TV at moment
Piers saying Guardian are wankers
Piers saying Guardian are wankers
Eccles Blue
Well-Known Member
I didn’t even realise that Trafford United had a ship on their badge until all this came up!! It’s all squashed down and looked like a child’s drawing of hills!! IMHO
Our badge is much crisper and clearer. If they go for the rose though I will be up in arms!!
Our badge is much crisper and clearer. If they go for the rose though I will be up in arms!!