Our Defence

too little pressure in midfield, falls onto the defence. How many attacks created in midfield 3rd become goals at any club? I'd say we're pretty high up there in the PL
 
Dax777 said:
Both Otamendi and Mangala are natural front foot defenders, defending deeper doesn't play to their strength. Pressuring better up top does. The problem with our defending often occurs long before it gets to our CBs.

For example, the real problem with Swansea's pal this weekend wasn't that Mangala was beaten by Gomis that happens, even to the best defenders, the worse problem was the total lack of pressure on the guy who slid the pass in. This happens way too often.
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Gomis pointed to where he wanted the ball passing, in fact there was only one place that pass was ever going to be played and a top level defender reads it, then gives himself a chance of getting across. You don't allow the ball to be slipped past and let the forward have a free run at goal.

You're correct that the problem started with a lack of pressure on the original pass though. For us to be clinging on to a 1-0 lead at that point and not be arsed to keep solid throughout the pitch was a joke.
 
Teams have wised up to our offside trap and are playing without a recognised striker (Liverpool, Stoke, Swansea, Gladbach)

This means that they are overloading midfield and making runs from deep which aren't being picked up by our defenders until its too late, which is why we are seeing a lot of diving in. Teams are also having time to pick passes because of our non - existent pressing in centre midfield, especially when Yaya plays

Pelegrini is a busted flush, its proven that his tactics only work for a season before being found out.
 
You should defend as a team , starting with the forwards, we put no pressure on the ball, which will sadly lead to our downfall this season . Don't think anybody has a clue when VK will be back and when he comes back will he stay fit ? Demechellis is way past his prime and when he does play we leave huge gaps behind which is exploited with ease .
 
dasblues said:
Teams have wised up to our offside trap and are playing without a recognised striker (Liverpool, Stoke, Swansea, Gladbach)

This means that they are overloading midfield and making runs from deep which aren't being picked up by our defenders until its too late, which is why we are seeing a lot of diving in. Teams are also having time to pick passes because of our non - existent pressing in centre midfield, especially when Yaya plays

Pelegrini is a busted flush, its proven that his tactics only work for a season before being found out.
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I think the last bit about Pellegrini was a bit harsh, but your tactical analysis is spot on.
 
dasblues said:
Teams have wised up to our offside trap and are playing without a recognised striker (Liverpool, Stoke, Swansea, Gladbach)

This means that they are overloading midfield and making runs from deep which aren't being picked up by our defenders until its too late, which is why we are seeing a lot of diving in. Teams are also having time to pick passes because of our non - existent pressing in centre midfield, especially when Yaya plays

Pelegrini is a busted flush, its proven that his tactics only work for a season before being found out.
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I know we like to blame Yaya, and he sure does play his part in the laxed defending. But pressure needs to start from the top. Meaning, Sterling, Silva, Bony, Kevin and Aguero, need to be better organized with their pressure.

More often than not one guy pressures softly while the other 2 seat back or wait till the ball is passed to their responsibility before running towards him. This attitude and style gives the new guy on the ball a chance to look up and then pass to another wide open guy who is by then behind 3 of our players with more options to pass to.

The way it should work is thus: there is a Central defender on the ball, Aguero runs at him while KDB and Silva\Sterling run simultaneously at his defensive pass options on the wings, as Dihno and Delph do the same to the CM options in the middle and Sagna\ Kolarov push up also on the wingers outlets.

Doing that forces the defender on the ball into 3 options, 1 pass back to his goalie ( the best option)2, boot it up field, or 3 attempt a risky long pass to a forward or a retreating attacking mid. That is how you are supposed to defend from the top. This keeps them harried constantly, and their mindset is that of a player simply trying not to make a mistake, rather than one seeking to make a penetrating pass

Not by having 1 striker run at 3 defenders as they pass the ball around him while he tires out chasing, then stops all together. And the rest of our players playing a soft retreat into our half with no pressure on the player who eventually brings the ball up.

This happens so frequently, that it is annoying to watch.

BTW I am not as confident as many are that Kompany's return will change much. I think too many have erroneously attributed our good defense to Kompany's presence as opposed to us playing teams who feared us at the beginning of the season, and often showed very little offensive impetus.

Kompany really can't so much about a soft pressure in the front third.

Our defensive problem is 2 fold; 1 teams pressure us high now because they've come to realize the obvious, our weakest passer are often our defenders, thus if they are better able to disrupt our play by pressuring us before we move it to our key players in midfield. That it took this long for most teams to figure this out is a little baffling. This has been obvious for almost 4 years now. Bayern, Roma, Barca, Dortmund and a host of CL clubs have often diarupted our play by doing this to us over the years.

It's part of the reason why I've always pined for a ball playing CB. Somehow Prem teams have finally caught on to the weakness. The effect of pressuring our CBs means we often have a hard time controlling possession for long spells ( which in itself is a form of defense- teams can't attack you when they don't have the ball).

2nd, that disruption is further magnified by our deployment of more direct players and fewer passers who value possession. Out with Fernando, NaVas and Nasri in with Delph, Sterling and Kevin.

Those introductions alone was always going to reduce our possession stats, but the by product being we'd be more cutting edge when we have it.

The only problem here is that we are not doing the 2nd part of the process. To limit the drop in possession stats, we had to turn to a stiffer front line pressure team, thus getting us the ball back quickly when we lose it, and being able to create even more as the opposition is often at its weakest defensively, just immediately after they gain possession.

These are all rudimentary stuff all top club should be doing constantly. That we don't do it, is a bit disheartening. And while many are appalled by those who are pinning for John Stones, it is obvious what his sweet passing will bring to our squad, and the problems he'd help fix.

Having a 3some of Komps, Ota and Stones will leave us with 3 solid passing CBs, all of whom can also jump into midfield to play as a DM if need be. Also, we should bring Denayer back and start him at RB or in competition with Zab, while he gets reps at CB in the Cup games.

But that's for next season. Right now, we simply need to add an 'organized' forward line pressure to our game plan.
 
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I've said it a thousand times, but our defensive problems stem from how we set up when we have the ball.

1: We are nowhere near compact enough. This leads to slow possession which carries a higher risk of being intercepted and countered.

2: We create ineffective width. The right hand sided overlap is hindered by utilising two right footed players at full back and in midfield. Both want to occupy the same space, and because neither has a tendency to come inside with the ball, they create a large gap between themselves and the rest of the midfield, so a central player has to slide over. In turn this creates bigger gaps in the middle of the pitch as we also try to retain our width on the opposite side of the pitch

3: We lack acceleration to close these gaps in central areas when Toure and Fernando play. Delph and Fernandinho are better suited to closing gaps, but collectively lack the ability to control a game in a possession based set up.

4: The gap between Mangala and Otamendi is often too large because they have to cover the full backs

5: Kolarov and Sagna are both fairly slow so lack any sort of recovery pace. Demichellis can't actually run.

6: None of our current back line are particularly comfortable receiving or maneuvering the ball under pressure.

7: None of our current back line have exceptional passing ability. Otamendi isn't bad, but sometimes lacks composure. Building from the back is very difficult against teams who operate the high press. As a result we lose the ball in dangerous areas. The Liverpool game highlights this tremendously.

8: We cannot counter press because we lack any form of compactness. What's worse is that we still try to intermittently press without any method. We press the man on the ball, sometimes with more than one player, but don't press any of his potential passing options. This means teams like Stoke can move the ball around us like they are Barcelona.

9: We don't commit enough fouls during the transition. De Bruyne on Pogba (on the half way line, as they broke for their goal) is an astonishing example of how poor we are without the ball.

10: We let teams counter attack us centrally. Again this is a width issue. Shorter gaps between players makes it easier to filter their counter into a more manageable area of the pitch. Larger gaps makes it impossible. Again, sporadic and brainless pressing on top of a lack of compactness means teams can counter however they like.

The above 10 points mean that our centre backs are consistently put in situations where they have to defend off the cuff, often in one vs one situations. Neither are as good as Kompany in this regard. When there is a lack of team organisation, the last line of defence suffer the consequences. This is without taking into account individual defensive errors which clearly happen at every club. Mangala seems fairly culpable in this regard. His decision making isn't the greatest, so he works better next to an organiser. Otamendi appears to also suffer in much the same way, although seemingly to a lesser extent. The full backs aren't without blame either. Poor body positioning, lack of concentration, lack of ability on the ball, and Clichy aside, lack of recovery pace.

To summarise, defensively we won't improve until Kompany comes back, and we won't stop relying on Kompany until a better manager comes in.
 
Ono, I like all your points, hits on most of our problems. However, I do think Ota is far better than Kompany on one v ones. Frankly, he might be the best CB at it anywhere in the world.
 
Dax777 said:
Ono, I like all your points, hits on most of our problems. However, I do think Ota is far better than Kompany on one v ones. Frankly, he might be the best CB at it anywhere in the world.
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Not for me sometime soon he's gonna get 1 wrong and the red card will be out!
 
uwe rosler 28 said:
Not for me sometime soon he's gonna get 1 wrong and the red card will be out!
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Yeah he we'll. Just like I've seen Kompany get beat and get a yellow or red. This didn't change my view that Komp was still a superior 1 v 1 defender. I just think Ota is far superior. Frankly, I haven't seen a better 1 v 1 defender in the Prem this season. He win far more than he should be expected to in 1v1 situations.
 
The high defensive line which our manager wants to play is absolutely killing us.

If everyone dropped off 10 to 15 yards things would be a whole lot better.

When we won the Premier League first time round we had a midfield 4 of Barry, De Jong, Yaya (in his pomp) and Silva.

If we still employed Mancinis desire to protect the back four as opposed to our managers desire to win every game 7-6, we should play Delph for Barry, Fernandinho for De Jong, with Fernando as back up to them.

Then Yaya and Silva are still here so can still be played together especially with hard working legs behind them.

The rest of the team is easy to pick as it's any two from De Bruyner, Aguero, Bony, Navas, and Sterling.

Our problem time and time again this season and the Swansea game highlighted it, is that we have too many attacking players on the pitch sometimes.

Hence the Sterling substitution at half time to get extra legs in midfield. Unfortunately that sub unbalanced the side and we became lopsided and as we all know that game was an ordeal, simple as.

Kompany returning sooner rather than later will be essential, I believe Komapny and Ottamendi can form a really solid centre half partnership.

Only my observations on the matter thats all.
 
We've never looked comfortable defensively under Pellegrini. He insists on playing the defence higher, which lacks pace. Our midfield bar Delph and Ferna doesn't have the energy or desire to press the opponent. We have Sterling, Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero who are brilliant with the ball but don't offer much without it and more often than not Pellegrini plays 3 of them at a time which hinders us.
 
J_Bow said:
We've never looked comfortable defensively under Pellegrini. He insists on playing the defence higher, which lacks pace. Our midfield bar Delph and Ferna doesn't have the energy or desire to press the opponent. We have Sterling, Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero who are brilliant with the ball but don't offer much without it and more often than not Pellegrini plays 3 of them at a time which hinders us.
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There was an interesting article in The Independent about the success Leicester and Watford are having with 442.

It argues that if when you lose possession one of your two strikers drops back to their rear central midfielder to make it a 451 then you benefit from having more men in the box in attack.

But of course that demands a particular type of striker, which Bony and Dzecko aren't and Aguero is too valuable elsewhere.

It's certainly the case we could do with getting more bodies in the box sometimes and having the team press from the front.

He also argues that the wingers in 442 do more defending than in the more advanced positioning in 4231. Whether that's down to other factors though, I wouldn't like to say. But he argues it leaves the centre backs less exposed.

Thought it was an interesting viewpoint given how both Watford and especially Leicester have punched well above their weight while teams like us and Chelsea have struggled with 442. Like against Barca away.

I certainly wouldn't mind a forward that could fill the deep lying and pressing second striker option for the tactical flexibility.

Can anyone see Nacho in that role? Genuine question and not a dig. He's an exciting young player.
 
Steve68 said:
There was an interesting article in The Independent about the success Leicester and Watford are having with 442.

It argues that if when you lose possession one of your two strikers drops back to their rear central midfielder to make it a 451 then you benefit from having more men in the box in attack.

But of course that demands a particular type of striker, which Bony and Dzecko aren't and Aguero is too valuable elsewhere.

It's certainly the case we could do with getting more bodies in the box sometimes and having the team press from the front.

He also argues that the wingers in 442 do more defending than in the more advanced positioning in 4231. Whether that's down to other factors though, I wouldn't like to say. But he argues it leaves the centre backs less exposed.

Thought it was an interesting viewpoint given how both Watford and especially Leicester have punched well above their weight while teams like us and Chelsea have struggled with 442. Like against Barca away.

I certainly wouldn't mind a forward that could fill the deep lying and pressing second striker option for the tactical flexibility.

Can anyone see Nacho in that role? Genuine question and not a dig. He's an exciting young player.
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We miss a Tevez type player.........should've got Suarez/Sanchez but being financially nobbled didn't help.
 
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