Palestinian Boy Kidnapped and Murdered.

[The Flash]

The best long term option may be for the Palestine land to be passed over to the Israelis.

This would end all conflict over that landmass.

Idiot.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

It wasn't an agreed truce though was it? The UN have lobbied so that the pesky Palestinian civilians can get some food and fresh water after 9 days of bombardment.

According to Al Jazeera, the source people are praising for its even-handed reporting:

In a statement in response, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The group agrees to a ceasefire for five hours".

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-temporarily-halt-fire-gaza-strip-201471620212427540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 27540.html</a>

They can't even stop for a few hours despite publicly agreeing to. How can you trust them?

 

[dazdon]

If bombing back and retaliating is getting know where (which I agree it's not) what are Israel's options to protect its people then?

I think the consensus is that they remove the settlements and give the land back and give the Palestinians a state that is unhindered by blockades.

When that happens and IF Hamas continue with the rockets and antagonist actions the solution would need to be revisited.

Rockets are still being fired during the truce. The Palestinian leadership simply can't be trusted (although I appreciate that they don't have a great deal of faith in the Israelis either).

For what it's worth I don't think Hamas will stop even if these concessions are made and Israel implement all their demands with regards to Palestine.

But the cycle that continues has to be broken and at the very least the international community will view Israel in a different light and all work together to stop Hamas in the long run....also the groundswell of support for Hamas would be stopped if the Palestinians had something to work towards.

As a bystander watching events unfold in the Muslim world of extremism it's very difficult to get a handle on the reasons why some radical organisations are hell bent on the destruction of others (The Afghan bomb killing 80+ people in a marketplace two days ago is an example).

It leaves me thinking is it the way it's being reported to me or is the Muslim world of death just a media created agenda?

Please excuse the naivety of a Manc in his living room commenting on wider world issues.

 

[without a dream]

It wasn't an agreed truce though was it? The UN have lobbied so that the pesky Palestinian civilians can get some food and fresh water after 9 days of bombardment.

According to Al Jazeera, the source people are praising for its even-handed reporting:

In a statement in response, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The group agrees to a ceasefire for five hours".

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-temporarily-halt-fire-gaza-strip-201471620212427540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 27540.html</a>

They can't even stop for a few hours despite publicly agreeing to. How can you trust them?

I don't trust them.

 

[Skashion]

It's akin to debating with someone with multiple personality disorder.

Yes, it is, which is why I can't be bothered with it anymore. He's an alright bloke and I think his heart is in the right place but no mas.

 

[Skashion]

It wasn't an agreed truce though was it? The UN have lobbied so that the pesky Palestinian civilians can get some food and fresh water after 9 days of bombardment.

According to Al Jazeera, the source people are praising for its even-handed reporting:

In a statement in response, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The group agrees to a ceasefire for five hours".

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-temporarily-halt-fire-gaza-strip-201471620212427540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 27540.html</a>

They can't even stop for a few hours despite publicly agreeing to. How can you trust them?

It's clear the political side isn't in control of the military (terrorist) wing. The military (terrorist) wing of Hamas are their own group basically and don't follow orders they don't want to follow.

 

[Plaything of the gods]

It wasn't an agreed truce though was it? The UN have lobbied so that the pesky Palestinian civilians can get some food and fresh water after 9 days of bombardment.

According to Al Jazeera, the source people are praising for its even-handed reporting:

In a statement in response, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The group agrees to a ceasefire for five hours".

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-temporarily-halt-fire-gaza-strip-201471620212427540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 27540.html</a>

They can't even stop for a few hours despite publicly agreeing to. How can you trust them?

It's clear the political side isn't in control of the military (terrorist) wing. The military (terrorist) wing of Hamas are their own group basically and don't follow orders they don't want to follow.

This. PB talks about Hamas as being an homogenous group: the political leadership (the ones who agreed today's UN-mediated ceasefire) say and everyone else follows. I'm not convinced the leadership have that level of control.

One could equally say the Israeli government was responsible for the murder of that Palestinian lad and beating up of his cousin but we know it was a group of Jewish nutjobs and a bunch of overzealous border guards. Were they following orders?

 

[No6]

I think Mark likes to play Devil's advocate, but to the nth degree, and changes his mind that many times on a thread that even he ends up unsure of what he actually believes.
It's akin to debating with someone with multiple personality disorder.
But then he's a southerner, so you can't expect too much.

I know I'm weighing in without being asked, but Mark certainly does give the impression of playing devils advocate, but from what I've seen its through him attempting to look at both sides of the argument and, without wanting to patronise, to learn more about a subject.

Personally, I think that's something most people (myself included) cannot do.

Thankyou roamin, that's exactly what it is, seeing both sides and try and be balanced and understand the whole situation from all angles, of course some are going to be biased

i personally believe Israels response to these attacks is totally disproportionate, unjust and beyond sickening, however my understanding is they deserve to protect there selves and there people, i am Anti the extremists in Hamas and against the American backed Israeli governments handling in this never ending conflict, however, i'll admit i have loads to learn before i can strongly shout from the rooftops and support one side only.

Thanks Mark. Your stance is admirable.

The people that need our support at the moment are the innocent Palestinian population who have been living under an illegal occupation for many many years. This is a grave humanitarian disaster and I would urge you with all my heart to stand with resolute solidarity behind the poor souls who have suffered so much and will continue to suffer. Support for the Palestinians DOES NOT mean that you support the actions of the tiny minority of Hamas fighters. Nor does it mean that you can't believe in a nation's right to defend itself. At the simplest level, this isn't about taking sides, and anyone who fudges the humanitarian catastrophe with such tosh is an absolute fucktard (see previous 90 pages for examples).

People like you and me, like our families, are suffering and dying on a daily basis and have been for decades. This is the crux of the issue. Don't let people debase the argument into a one-side-or-the-other playground spat.

People are dying unnecessarily and they need, are crying out for, our solidarity and support.

Stand with the Palestinian people. Not with Hamas, not with Netanyahu and his expansionist allies.

Stand with the Palestinian people and demand an end to this brutal occupation. An end to the blockade. An end to Israeli settlement building. An end to the illegal "security wall" and restriction of movement. If the Palestinian people have this, and the outside world is seen to support it, then Hamas will have the rug pulled out from under them.

 

[Skashion]

One could equally say the Israeli government was responsible for the murder of that Palestinian lad and beating up of his cousin but we know it was a group of Jewish nutjobs and a bunch of overzealous border guards. Were they following orders?

You could definitely say the same about settler violence. Although Israel has to accept blame for many of the settlers being on Palestinian land, and it's a problem of their own making, it would be silly to pretend that makes Israel directly responsible for every act of settler violence. Interestingly enough, the numbers of Palestinians killed by the settlers and the numbers Israelis killed by Hamas' rockets are extremely similar, which makes the problem even more comparable. Yet, on one side of the divide, Hamas' rockets are sufficient enough cause to deny the Palestinians a state yet how often is Israel held responsible for settler violence? It's a double-standard to be sure.

 

[No6]

An opinion re occupation and the right to defend. please take note of the obligations (of both the occupiers AND the occupied) under international law:

The idea that Israel is defending itself against unprovoked attacks from outside its borders is an absurdity. Despite Israel’s withdrawal of settlements and bases in 2005, Gaza remains occupied both in reality and international law, its border, coastal waters, resources, airspace and power supply controlled by Israel.

So the Palestinians of Gaza are an occupied people, like those in the West Bank, who have the right to resist, by force if they choose – though not deliberately to target civilians. But Israel does not have a right of self-defence over territories it illegally occupies – it has an obligation to withdraw. That occupation, underpinned by the US and its allies, is now entering its 48th year. Most of the 1.8 million Palestinians enduring continuous bombardment in Gaza are themselves refugees or their descendants, who were driven out or fled from cities such as Jaffa 66 years ago when Israel was established.

It can’t seriously be argued that Israel’s refusal to withdraw from the rump of the territory on which the United Nations voted to establish a Palestinian state in 1947 is because of rocket fire. It was after all during the period of quiescence over the past year that the Israeli government rejected the US plan for even a figleaf of a two-state solution – and stepped up illegal colonisation. As Netanyahu made clear this week, there cannot be “any agreement in which we relinquish security control” of the West Bank.

So we’re left with a one-state solution, operated on ethnically segregated apartheid-style lines, in which a large section of the population has no say in who rules over them, indefinitely. But it’s folly to imagine that this shameful injustice will continue without an escalating cost for those who enforce it.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ied-people</a>